Power Creep

[Kirbyprime]

This is actually pretty old, just re-watched the videos and figured I'd post it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

[Andradi]

Still want to know who thought that voice processing was a good idea, that show is unlistenable.

[Raldo]

While I would agree with you, if you have any interest in the content itself, I would suggest trying one of the newer videos. They have definitely toned it down from what it used to be.

[Kaisha]

Doesn't really explain real ways to combat power creep in an MMO though. Only reason something like sidegrades worked in XI was beside you could use every piece of gear optimal to the situation you require it for due to mid-battle gear swaps.

His examples for WoW & EQ were simply "Hey it's now a hard mode version!....for better gear that creeps you along further" and "Legacy server because we hate ourselves and want to burn through the core content again".

[Spider-Dan]

I never really thought about it before, but the removal of the 75 cap did have a significant contribution to my decision to leave XI.

Had the game stayed capped at 75, I probably would have come back after XIV 1.0's disaster. The prospect of coming back to useless gear and level grinding dissuaded me.

[Therin]

I never really thought about it before, but the removal of the 75 cap did have a significant contribution to my decision to leave XI.

Had the game stayed capped at 75, I probably would have come back after XIV 1.0's disaster. The prospect of coming back to useless gear and level grinding dissuaded me.

Agreed. The increase of the level cap ultimately ruined XI. There were ways to progress the game that didn't involve destroying 9 years of work.

[Taint]

Up until adoulin expansion I was still rocking most of the gear I got at the 75 cap....

Armadaberk, valkplate, byakkos haidate, hell I even used osode at 99. This power creep in 14 is turning me off.

[ronin sparthos]

The decision to take XI to 99 was a great decision that reinvigorated the game coming off shitstew of the goddess. Or have you all forgotten Fay Augments, Yilbegan and Fomor NMs already? For a short period there was a new spark to leveling up, getting new abilities and feeling like you were making progress with Empyrean.

Where things went awry was in how easy Abyssea got followed by a content drought followed by fuck it, we're going full ilvl all up in this shit. Yup, base weaps from Adoulin gonna shit all over Relics.

As for XIV, the game makes no attempt to misdirect you into thinking your gear means anything. Yoshida has been driving home he's going full vertical from the start and subtly warning you to not get too attached to anything because it'll be invalidated within 6 months. Sit back and enjoy the ride with friends, we're at the theme park.

[Kincard]

The level cap increase in XI was only fun because it came with learning new spells and abilities in an amount we had never seen in XI before. Before that each patch gave very few job adjustments at all (outside of maybe the patch they added Category 2s). Leveling up itself isn't terribly interesting, and neither is increasing ilevel. All that really does is make you watch numbers go up (In b4 "lel MMOs"). I look forward to playing new content, but I can do without the ilevel increase because I prefer not to waste precious hours of my time in the mortal coil grinding for virtual armor. It's fun once in a while, yes, but I liked XI's system where I could get a solid set of armor and then do pretty well for years. True, if you wanted to be optimum you'd gather every tiny tweaking piece of gear there is, but that was hardly necessary if you just wanted to play the game.

If modern MMOs were designed so that you'd obtain armor at a reasonable pace without you ever feeling the grind, then I wouldn't mind so much. But that, of course, goes directly against their whole philosophy of stretching content out as far as they want. Given the amount of actual original content XIV has had in half a year (Take a look and you'll realize there's only actually been 2 new dungeons- not even the story missions were worthy of a couple unique missions apparently), this is not the place I think I'll be seeing that design.

[Spider-Dan]

Given the amount of actual original content XIV has had in half a year (Take a look and you'll realize there's only actually been 2 new dungeons- not even the story missions were worthy of a couple unique missions apparently), this is not the place I think I'll be seeing that design.

The game was released 6 months ago, at which point virtually everything in the game was new. It's silly to look at a brand new game and say "but what new content have you offered since the release?"

[Alkimi]

Perhaps XIV wouldn't need vertical progression so badly if gear actually had interesting stats on it. They really need to mix it up a bit in 2.2 and give gear more than just VIT/Main Stat and then a choice of two underwhelming stats. Right now you just get the best item level you can and after that any variation is barely worth it after you have the acc you need for coil.

How about weapons with additional effects? Or gear that maybe lowers recast of certain abilities or increases some of those "proc" chances? I'm not sure if it was designed like this to keep initial balance and it was just the devs being "safe" but I can't remember seeing more boring gear than XIV currently has.

[BerenTebogo]

Well unfortunately, with how they've done the 3 and out debuff system, a proc weapon could do more harm than good.

Example: blind weapon on titan hm so you can't flash MB. Stun weapon with lower duration than sb / bs on dreadknights, etc etc.

Realistic proc weapons would be nice like add effect: dark damage, etc, but they'd only proc on AA so a small gain to about 30% of your dps.

But yes, we need more stats. I'd give up like 60 crit for aetherflow -5 seconds or some shit.

[Kincard]

It's silly to look at a brand new game and say "but what new content have you offered since the release?"

What? No it's not, people do it all the time. If you applied a bit of common sense the obvious comparison here is vs what other games patch in. Nobody expects them to put out release-day content every month, I was pointing out how half a year after release you have essentially 2 new dungeons, and 1 quest chain that's actually of note (Hildebrand), and a bunch of story quests that idiotically send you to do level 15/30 content for no reason. That's a pretty small amount even when considering its patch content.

[Spider-Dan]

Perhaps XIV wouldn't need vertical progression so badly if gear actually had interesting stats on it. They really need to mix it up a bit in 2.2 and give gear more than just VIT/Main Stat and then a choice of two underwhelming stats. Right now you just get the best item level you can and after that any variation is barely worth it after you have the acc you need for coil.

Without the ability to swap in battle, I'm not sure how they can handle it.

I would love to see a return to "Increases song radius" or "Adds 'Regen' effect to Sacred Soil" type gear, but that would break recruitment mechanics in this game; as is, you can size up a person's gear by looking at two numbers (HP and average iLVL), whereas a move to more unique gear would almost have to result in a situation where someone is wearing lower-iLVL gear because of a unique bonus (e.g. 1.0 BRD AF hands over Darklight for Minuet bonus).

If you applied a bit of common sense the obvious comparison here is vs what other games patch in.

I didn't see a comparison in your post.

Nobody expects them to put out release-day content every month, I was pointing out how half a year after release you have essentially 2 new dungeons, and 1 quest chain that's actually of note (Hildebrand), and a bunch of story quests that idiotically send you to do level 15/30 content for no reason. That's a pretty small amount even when considering its patch content.

Well, first off, I don't know that Copperbell/Haukke are close enough to the original to be considered "old content." Second, if you're ignoring extreme Primals and PvP as "new content" then I don't know what to tell you.

[Korialstrasz]

IMO it's not that the act of raising the level cap itself is what killed XI, but more that they did it way too fucking fast. It was what, like a couple of months between jumps or some shit? Combine that with content like abyssea which was low man content where every mob is a loot pinata, immediately followed by voidwatch which generally required an alliance and had the absolutely most fucktarded loot system I've ever seen in any game (two extremes, too fast), and GG dead game.

Power creep itself isn't necessarily bad if the developers take their time with it. XI at 75 cap is a good example where better gear would occasionally come out, but wouldn't entirely overshadow older gear immediately. Eventually it might once you have all new gear, but it was slow and took years. Towards the end though they just started pumping out single pieces of gear with damn near higher stats than entire sets of gear combined.

This shits already an issue in XIV though IMO. The whole way to 50 you get gear that is a few ilvl withing the equipable level of them item. Then you hit 50, where you go from your i50ish quest gear, to i60 dungeon gear, to i70 darklight, straight up to i90 coil/myth gear. 2.2 is gonna give stuff that's what, like i100ish? If they ever raise the level cap (and you know they will), what's gear gonna be then?

[Kincard]

I didn't see a comparison in your post.

yeah thus the common sense part

are you just trolling me or are you seriously this dense

Well, first off, I don't know that Copperbell/Haukke are close enough to the original to be considered "old content." Second, if you're ignoring extreme Primals and PvP as "new content" then I don't know what to tell you.

The whole point was to exclude harder difficulties and rehashes. I'm drawing a comparison between stuff like that and ilevel increasing forcing to regrind all your stuff, ie filler content. Not saying I don't enjoy the extreme mode primals, though- I don't mind the filler content if its well thought-out and fun to play like those, but shit like transparently outdating all your stuff or those craptastic beastmen dailies need to go away.

[Lucavi]

IMO it's not that the act of raising the level cap itself is what killed XI, but more that they did it way too fucking fast. It was what, like a couple of months between jumps or some shit?

I do agree with this. Why take a jump from 75 > 90 or 75 >99? String that shit out on a 5 level per Xpac system, especially for a game that spent the previous 5-6 years sitting at a 75 cap. I suppose they did it because they had no problems bumping the cap up from 60 to 75 in a single swoop, but again, we're talking multiple expansions and years later with no cap increase. Having a slow increase could have meant for more abilities and traits to be included to make each xpac feel "fresh", but perhaps they felt that it was best to do it all at once, unsure of how much cash they'd rake in to justify multiple future xpacs.

I dunno. What I do know, however, is that even if every XI nostalgist left ARR, it wouldn't leave a ripple in the subs, nor would it affect the future of the game. There's been far too much positive press and far to much cash flowing into SE's coffers for SE to ever separate ARR's success between Yoshi's team making a quality product and a vertical progression system. Plus, Yoshi himself favors vertical systems from his time playing "western" MMOs, and Square is liable to let Yoshi do whatever he wants with the game now considering his massive success. Nobody has done what he has in MMO history: take an absolute hunk of shit and revive it like some kind of phoenix.

But hey, you could always hope for an XI remake or direct sequel with Tanaka at the helm, right?! Get you some of that good old vintage XI, but with upgraded graphics!

[Spider-Dan]

yeah thus the common sense part

So what MMO are you comparing it to that had an incredible bounty of new content added in the first 6 months after release?

I do agree with this. Why take a jump from 75 > 90 or 75 >99? String that shit out on a 5 level per Xpac system, especially for a game that spent the previous 5-6 years sitting at a 75 cap. I suppose they did it because they had no problems bumping the cap up from 60 to 75 in a single swoop, but again, we're talking multiple expansions and years later with no cap increase.

Nearly everything in this paragraph is wrong, but the bolded parts are the really glaring examples.

[Kaisha]

But yes, we need more stats. I'd give up like 60 crit for aetherflow -5 seconds or some shit.

That or give us materia slots on the new gear, and introduce job-specific materia (that isn't RNG to obtain) that we can slot in so we can pick & choose what we want.

Materia system so damn underutilized for end-game outside of filler gear.

[lilbubbles]

Not that it means anything, but if you set up a party finder recruitment it lets you enter an ilevel requirement up to 200.