Yoshida Press Interview with Dengeki Online (2/20)

[Obsidian]

Easy, because new jobs require new and different mechanics. Like I said, there's no point if the new tank job is the same as the old because that won't change anything. With new jobs, players get to experience new mechanics and playstyles that may or may not click. I had my personal epiphany with SCH, I know many other people have too.

The problem I see with this is that the mechanics are pretty well set in stone right now. It's not so much the class mechanics that put people off in my experience but the fight mechanics. Nearly every fight involves a tank swapping mechanic (meaning any tank that gets added is either going to need GLD as a sub-class or their own version of Provoke), they all involve positional awareness, threat management on multiple targets, stunning/silencing, and more rigorous cooldown management than DPS classes. These are the things that turn people off of tanking (in addition to few low-risk opportunities to practice), and I don't see a new tank job doing much to mitigate the inherent responsibilities of tanking.

I would tank more but like others put off by the playerbase. It's all good saying learn the fights as tank in DF and PF learning parties but when you can one shot it as a DPS that is an awful experience to go through considering nearly all these groups will struggle to get to the difficult parts of the fights eg past heart on Titan extreme. I'm not giving up on PLD however, I just concluded it's better to wait for a new patch and learn new content as a DPS and tank so there's none of that taking a big step back.

There are a couple people in my Free Company in this position, so later in the week when Coil is done and people want Primal clears I always offer to go DPS so someone else can learn the fight on a tank role. Often times there isn't much you need to change going from DPS to tank (in the Primal fights particularly). You still need to move to the same places (most of the time) and dodge the same stuff.

Edit: I think moving towards 10-man parties with two extra DPS (2/2/6) would help to alleviate DPS queue times but I'm not sure how much that would impact content design. Primarily I think things would just have more HP, but I'm not a game designer.

[BerenTebogo]

The problem I see with this is that the mechanics are pretty well set in stone right now. It's not so much the class mechanics that put people off in my experience but the fight mechanics. Nearly every fight involves a tank swapping mechanic (meaning any tank that gets added is either going to need GLD as a sub-class or their own version of Provoke), they all involve positional awareness, threat management on multiple targets, stunning/silencing, and more rigorous cooldown management than DPS classes. These are the things that turn people off of tanking (in addition to few low-risk opportunities to practice), and I don't see a new tank job doing much to mitigate the inherent responsibilities of tanking.



There are a couple people in my Free Company in this position, so later in the week when Coil is done and people want Primal clears I always offer to go DPS so someone else can learn the fight on a tank role. Often times there isn't much you need to change going from DPS to tank (in the Primal fights particularly). You still need to move to the same places (most of the time) and dodge the same stuff.

Edit: I think moving towards 10-man parties with two extra DPS (2/2/6) would help to alleviate DPS queue times but I'm not sure how much that would impact content design. Primarily I think things would just have more HP, but I'm not a game designer.

For melee DPS maybe. I like switching from tank to SMN as SMN is 100% different in EX fights. "Stand here and move 2 feet to left or right then go back to casting from the back" k.

[Elcura]

The problem I see with this is that the mechanics are pretty well set in stone right now. It's not so much the class mechanics that put people off in my experience but the fight mechanics. Nearly every fight involves a tank swapping mechanic (meaning any tank that gets added is either going to need GLD as a sub-class or their own version of Provoke), they all involve positional awareness, threat management on multiple targets, stunning/silencing, and more rigorous cooldown management than DPS classes. These are the things that turn people off of tanking (in addition to few low-risk opportunities to practice), and I don't see a new tank job doing much to mitigate the inherent responsibilities of tanking.

Sorry, totally missed this post lol.

What mechanics do you think are set in stone? Because fight mechanics have even more leeway than class/job mechanics and designers have a lot more freedom to work with. Tank swaps are the simplest mechanic to get tanks more involved with a fight and are hardly the end-all mechanic for tanks to react to. Any tank job that gets added needs a provoke-like ability (or provoke) regardless of mechanics, because not having one simply doesn't make them effective as a tank.

As for the rest, positional awareness, threat management etc...would you want anything less? It can seem to be an overload when you put it like that but I simply think of it as "don't die" and keep hate.

Threat management on multiple targets usually means (spam flash/overpower), sometimes it means you gotta run over with Rage of Halone ready and smack a bitch in the face. Every fight you have to learn how to deal with hate correctly, like DPS need to learn how to DPS and healers need to learn when they don't need to heal like maniacs. This is the one point I put above all others for tanks, but the easier it becomes (and it's pretty easy currently) the less daunting tanking seems.

Every job requires positional awareness, but tanks require about the same as ranged DPS because they can combo from any direction. I don't see what makes a tank looking out for themselves any different from another job considering the majority of attacks coming at them cannot be avoided (though on the flipside, they are the focus of heals 90% of the time).

Stunning/silence is usually a last resort for tanks to do and both jobs get an ability off GCD that isn't necessary for keeping hate. PLD gets both and only shield bash can be difficult to use reactively. Even the easiest job to play (BRD) has responsibility for silencing but people flock to that even so, and melee DPS both get short CD stuns (that are barely ever used for actually stunning). This is not a general tank responsibility, it depends on your party, your capabilities/reactions and the fight at hand.

CD management? For PLD maybe, WAR not so much? Either way, this is just asking that people know their jobs decently. I had no idea what good CD management is for PLD (truthfully, I still don't... what is it long CDs > short ones? I usually just cycle between rampart, healing+ and foresight until something significant...but I digress) but I've tanked pretty much everything until Twintania. I don't know much more about WAR other than holy fuck I'm having fun (I'm bad at WAR).

I'm not the best tank but I've learned that in a situation where you don't know what to do and there's no one better, you just tell your party what's up or ask for advice. The problem with tanking is mostly a social one, not a design one. People have all these fears and stigmas, need opportunities to practice and seem to lack the attitude necessary to even get started. Nothing will ease the responsibilities of tanking other than getting rid of the responsibility completely. DPS4LYFE. Do that and you'll get a lot of unhappy tanks.

There are a couple people in my Free Company in this position, so later in the week when Coil is done and people want Primal clears I always offer to go DPS so someone else can learn the fight on a tank role. Often times there isn't much you need to change going from DPS to tank (in the Primal fights particularly). You still need to move to the same places (most of the time) and dodge the same stuff.

Edit: I think moving towards 10-man parties with two extra DPS (2/2/6) would help to alleviate DPS queue times but I'm not sure how much that would impact content design. Primarily I think things would just have more HP, but I'm not a game designer.

I dunno, apart from Titan I think going from DPS to tank in primals is a lot different. Adding 2 more DPS into fights just means more of the shit we have. More HP, more adds, more trigger mechanics, danger zones(!) etc. They would have to fix LB too, because you're going to have a lot of dupes (I mean BRDS).

[Lyall]

The problem with tanking is mostly a social one, not a design one. People have all these fears and stigmas, need opportunities to practice and seem to lack the attitude necessary to even get started.

This is the crux of all of it, though. No new job/ability/mechanic in the game is going to circumvent what you just said. If someone fucks up as a DPS, they can save face and call "lag" and get to see the fight a bit more or get raised, but it isn't a death sentence. A tank not knowing where to pull an add, or what add to grab, or how to pick things up quickly? That'll wipe a group. How many Turn 4 attempts ended with a new tank not knowing how to manage the Dread immediately? How many times have Spiny Plumes blown up? With the abrasive nature of TWO FUCK-UPS AND KICK PF groups and the possibility of cross-server DF it's hostile out there for a new tank to not know a fight or mechanic and ask for help, or worse, to not know it, say nothing, then kill everyone 30s into an attempt.

It's not something that can be fixed by SE.

[Katlan]

It's not something that can be fixed by SE.

It actually is, they can make smarter boss design instead of making 80% of the bosses in the game have a pass/fail mechanic that requires a 100 ping. Its the pass/fail mechanic that is inherent in every mechanic of Titan and Twintania that make ppl do the "1 fail you get kicked." pass/fail mechanics to this extent don't have a place in a MMO. They are perfectly fine for big bosses to have here and there (every mmo has them to SOME extent), but not when fights are designed around pass/fail left and right. And if they are present there needs to be more leeway.

SE created this western player attitude based on how they design content. They can fix it by making better design encounters

[Lyall]

It actually is, they can make smarter boss design instead of making 80% of the bosses in the game have a pass/fail mechanic that requires a 100 ping. Its the pass/fail mechanic that is inherent in every mechanic of Titan and Twintania that make ppl do the "1 fail you get kicked." pass/fail mechanics to this extent don't have a place in a MMO. And if they are present there needs to be more leeway

I think I speak for everyone when I say that that sort of thing would be welcomed with open arms, but I can't think of a single mechanic right now that would meet your idea without just being reduced difficulty on the tanks themselves, which was what Elcura was saying about not dumbing down anything.

I like the idea of punishing mechanics that don't instant-wipe you (I liked that there are multiple ways for tank/healer to handle Lunatic Voice from Siren in Pharos, for example) but it's tough to balance those without making it a straight gear-check.

[dejet]

Garuda shit you do as a tank that is onotp of DD job
-Dodge SS x2
-Dodge feathers(one extra set that DD do not have to)
-Get CDs up pre WW
-voke plume at right time

Titan
-Tank swap timing(depending on your PT most of the time its after a LS you want to take it)
-adds(if your OT)
-dodge adds LS along with titnas LS and bombs(this is the worst part of the fight as a OT)
-placement of adds crap(this can be on the DDs too tho if they just go all out when you are about to dodge something)
-dodge bombs when you can

thats it...

Ifirit
-Understand when to tank swap(this is the key to tanking the fight)
-placement for plumes
-knowing when you run with chains

thats it.

All EX fights are somewhat simple, yes a mistake on your part is a wipe just about but really its not that bad once you get things down.

[Kaslo]

People run with chains? lol.

Also, with Ifrit tank swaping, it's also to know when to lay off hate. I tend to stop doing hate generating moves at 2 stacks so it can be grabbed easily at 3 stacks, something only about 10% of tanks seem to do :/

[dejet]

People run with chains? lol.

Also, with Ifrit tank swaping, it's also to know when to lay off hate. I tend to stop doing hate generating moves at 2 stacks so it can be grabbed easily at 3 stacks, something only about 10% of tanks seem to do :/

if you want to speed things up by a few sec ya. I run with chains if its the one melee DD and the OT is at 1 stack
once his rotation is about to hit the second stack I run back asap.

[Kaslo]

if you want to speed things up by a few sec ya. I run with chains if its the one melee DD and the OT is at 1 stack
once his rotation is about to hit the second stack I run back asap.

I just tend to avoid that because sometimes it can put an eruption in a bad place

[Obsidian]

Sorry, totally missed this post lol.

What mechanics do you think are set in stone? Because fight mechanics have even more leeway than class/job mechanics and designers have a lot more freedom to work with. Tank swaps are the simplest mechanic to get tanks more involved with a fight and are hardly the end-all mechanic for tanks to react to. Any tank job that gets added needs a provoke-like ability (or provoke) regardless of mechanics, because not having one simply doesn't make them effective as a tank.

The stacking debuff mechanic to me feels forced. It feels like a cheap way to shoehorn the 2/2/4 structure into encounters where one tank would otherwise be perfectly adequate (particularly in Ultima HM and Titan EX). The rest are outlined below.

As for the rest, positional awareness, threat management etc...would you want anything less? It can seem to be an overload when you put it like that but I simply think of it as "don't die" and keep hate.

Threat management on multiple targets usually means (spam flash/overpower), sometimes it means you gotta run over with Rage of Halone ready and smack a bitch in the face. Every fight you have to learn how to deal with hate correctly, like DPS need to learn how to DPS and healers need to learn when they don't need to heal like maniacs. This is the one point I put above all others for tanks, but the easier it becomes (and it's pretty easy currently) the less daunting tanking seems.

Every job requires positional awareness, but tanks require about the same as ranged DPS because they can combo from any direction. I don't see what makes a tank looking out for themselves any different from another job considering the majority of attacks coming at them cannot be avoided (though on the flipside, they are the focus of heals 90% of the time).

In terms of positional awareness, I was moreso referring to enemy placements than I was combo requirements. As a melee DPS you need to worry about your flanking/rear attack bonuses and dodging. As a healer you need to worry about healing (occasionally moving to position for AoE heals but most people pile ontop of each other anyway) and dodging, occasionally being aware of things like Inferno Howl. As a ranged DPS all you really need to worry about is dodging. As a tank, all of the above must be considered. You need to keep the enemy (or enemies) in a position where the rear/flank is accessible to DPS, provides DPS with enough room to avoid abilities, won't cleave anyone, and gives backline jobs room to maneuver. At the same time, you need to be avoiding abilities yourself while keeping the mob in said position. Often times this is not difficult, but occasionally a situation necessitates adjustments or improvisation. This is what puts people off in my experience; when things don't follow a strict path, people don't know what to do, and it causes stress.

Stunning/silence is usually a last resort for tanks to do and both jobs get an ability off GCD that isn't necessary for keeping hate. PLD gets both and only shield bash can be difficult to use reactively. Even the easiest job to play (BRD) has responsibility for silencing but people flock to that even so, and melee DPS both get short CD stuns (that are barely ever used for actually stunning). This is not a general tank responsibility, it depends on your party, your capabilities/reactions and the fight at hand.

CD management? For PLD maybe, WAR not so much? Either way, this is just asking that people know their jobs decently. I had no idea what good CD management is for PLD (truthfully, I still don't... what is it long CDs > short ones? I usually just cycle between rampart, healing+ and foresight until something significant...but I digress) but I've tanked pretty much everything until Twintania. I don't know much more about WAR other than holy fuck I'm having fun (I'm bad at WAR).

Admittedly stunning/silencing is a lesser responsibility, but it still requires knowledge (or at least a general awareness) of an enemy's attack pattern that DPS or even healers may not need, as well as a reasonably fast reaction time. Often times this responsibility falls to the tanks because they're the ones most often in range to do it (BRDs aside). If it specifically requires Stun, Paladins have to be particularly aware, because Shield Bash is on the GCD.

Cooldown management is more relevant to PLD than to WAR, but Inner Beast requires fairly precise timing thanks to the server delay and WAR has more to worry about in the way of active buffs/debuffs (Storm's Eye/Path/Maim). Paladins need to be very choosy about when to use their cooldowns because of the long recast timers attached to them (hello, Sentinel and Bulwark). Both tanks necessitate a proactive approach (try using Hallowed Ground as a panic button if you don't understand what I mean) and a level of anticipation to use cooldowns effectively, which is generally not required of DPS (or as frequently for healers).

Tanking (I don't play any healing classes currently so I will refrain from making a fool of myself there) in general requires an understanding of the encounter that goes beyond what a DPS needs to know to do their job, and carries with it an increased feeling of responsibility for the party's success or failure. This is what puts people off of tanking (in my experience), and it's not obvious to me how to go about addressing this, because it's inherent to the role, as it would be with any new tanking class added to the game.

[Spider-Dan]

The stacking debuff mechanic to me feels forced. It feels like a cheap way to shoehorn the 2/2/4 structure into encounters where one tank would otherwise be perfectly adequate (particularly in Ultima HM and Titan EX).

The stacking debuff mechanic is really a very glaring "you will bring two tanks because we say so" kludge. I think Garuda EX handles this in a more reasonable fashion; the stacking debuff is not from the main boss (you could throw PGL/DRG/ARC in there and have them voke it off each other with no real issue), and the only real reason to bring a second tank (outside of cross-class limitation on Provoke) is because you actually want someone to peel off a mob and tank it.

In contrast, without Incinerate (and the forced wipe if you kill too fast, I suppose), there's just no reason to bring another tank to Ifrit EX. It's a hamfistedly transparent shove in the back.

[Gokulo]

Famitsu has a preview with a lot of new mobs shown:
http://www.famitsu.com/news/201403/13049740.html

[Alkar]

Wow, Diabolos? Wasn't expecting him this early.

[RPGTyrant]

Can't sleep after seeing nightmare goobbue.

[Makwa]

A BEAR

[Rocl]

SLYCER PLS TRANS

[Shenrien]

Medusa in what looks to be coil, as well as something that looks similar to Bio-Weapon Omega. Can't say I was expecting any of that after the cutscene after turn 5, now I'm kinda curious.

[Eldelphia]

That Goobbue is horrendous.... Medusa in there too.

[Waraji]

Great, you hear that Ed? Bears. Now you've put the entire station in jeopardy!