Paladin VS Warrior : Battle of the Off Tank DPS

[Taim Meich]

using LOGIC you SERIOUSLY! believe that being able to be healed better AFTER a hit is taken, that you are generally better able to take the hit to begin with? weather you the EXTRA health you have and the lack of mitigation at the time between you and another tank, that information is only valuable if you know the values of the HIT and the Current Damage mitigation you have. But if you always focus on mitigation first you can be assured you will at least be able to survive the hit first to BE healed later.

Read the math, and this time, try to understand it. You have at least 2 examples in this thread.

[gaogaostegosaurus]

using LOGIC you SERIOUSLY! believe that being able to be healed better AFTER a hit is taken, that you are generally better able to take the hit to begin with? weather you the EXTRA health you have and the lack of mitigation at the time between you and another tank, that information is only valuable if you know the values of the HIT and the Current Damage mitigation you have. But if you always focus on mitigation first you can be assured you will at least be able to survive the hit first to BE healed later.

I feel sorry for your middle school math teacher

[Raldo]

From a healer's perspective, Defiance and Shield Oath are almost the same

Ah, that's right. I was thinking they were identical because I thought the healing bonus was +25%, but is instead +20%.

[earnhardt6276]

From a healer's perspective, Defiance and Shield Oath are almost the same; just about anyone can do the trivial math to prove it.

If a PLD would take 500 damage and regain 500 HP from a cure, WAR would take 500/80%=500*125%=625 and the same cure would recover 500*120%=600 HP. The 500/625 HP of damage would be the same percentage of a tank's health (If PLD has X HP, WAR has ~125%*X, 500/X=(500*125%)/(X*125%)), all other factors between them being equal. There's a small margin of difference in recovery, which may or may not be compensated from HP drain in Bloodbath / Inner Beast / Storm's Path.

Actual difference in tanks is the cooldowns.

Not everything is about recovery. its also about surviving the initial hit to BE healed afterwards, that's why mitigation has always been sought after more than just health in games, even in WOW everyone focused more on mitigation than vitality for that reason. And to give an example, when first fighting twintania, a Paladin could survive Death sentence, even though it almost killed them outright sometimes. But a warrior could not. they could get hit for over 8k+. that sense changed later with added cooldowns and more gear, but ya at the START of progression, being able to SURVIVE the hit first then be healed. Is better than being healed afterwards as a forethought to battle

[Helm]

I'm not sure he wants to bother trying to understand it. It's probably more enjoyable to be a condescending non-thinker.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Example1:
7k PLD, takes 5k Big Hit (adjusted to 4k with SHoath), healed for 1k Cure1/Physick (~14% of max HP): 4k HP remaining (~57%)

8.7k WAR takes 5k Big Hit, healed for 1k Cure1/Physick (adjusted to 1.2k with Defiance [~14%]): 4.9k HP remaining (~57%)

Example2:
7k PLD with 700 Adlo takes 5k (4k adjusted) hit. 3.7k remaining (~52%).
8.7k WAR with 840 Adlo takes 5k. 4540 remaining (~52%).

Factor in that big hits are, thus far, pretty scripted. WAR will be able to pop IB (20%mit) on pretty much every one, which is like having a selective Shield Oath or a higher potential uptime Rampart. On top of Defiance.

PLD has more cooldowns, WAR has better AoE hate generation, PLD has a better oshit button (Hallowed). Both do their jobs well enough. If you wanna argue WAR sucks, refute THIS logic.

e: beaten sorta
e2: corrected PLD adlo

[Raldo]

The postcount makes me wonder if we're just being trolled.

[Obsidian]

Hallowed Ground is next to worthless as an oshit button because of the animation delay, for the record.

[earnhardt6276]

Example1:
7k PLD, takes 5k Big Hit (adjusted to 4k with SHoath), healed for 1k Cure1/Physick (~14% of max HP): 4k HP remaining (~57%)

8.7k WAR takes 5k Big Hit, healed for 1k Cure1/Physick (adjusted to 1.2k with Defiance [~14%]): 4.9k HP remaining (~57%)

Example2:
7k PLD with 700 Adlo takes 5k (4k adjusted) hit. 3.3k remaining (~47%).
8.7k WAR with 840 Adlo takes 5k. 4540 remaining (~52%).

Factor in that big hits are, thus far, pretty scripted. WAR will be able to pop IB (20%mit) on pretty much every one, which is like having a selective Shield Oath or a higher potential uptime Rampart. On top of Defiance.

PLD has more cooldowns, WAR has better AoE hate generation, PLD has a better oshit button (Hallowed). Both do their jobs well enough. If you wanna argue WAR sucks, refute THIS logic.

e: beaten sorta

read my first post, I CLEARLY stated one is not BETTER than the other, one Is just more optimal choice to MT for progression rating for passive mitigation at all times purposes. In your examples of old content with top gear and health yes, warrior can hold advantages in some content. But you are using stats and damages BOTH tanks can survive. A hit that would Nearly 1 shot a paladin, that comes Often, say on a end game boss that might be coming. Would nearly if not always one shot the warrior, because the RAW dmg you see is MUCH MUCH higher, and if your mitigation isn't there you can't take it. Take a look at things a paladin CAN do because of mitigation a warrior cannot. 1 tanking Turn 4 for instance. Its purely because of mitigation and cooldowns they can do such things as tanking 2 dreadnaughts and boatload of adds, even for a short time. The Warrior can't take the hits to begin with that constantly so even though he is being healed for more, it doesn't make up for the lack of passive mitiation! Being healed for more and having more health ONLY goes so far.

[Feedmenow]

Not everything is about recovery. its also about surviving the initial hit to BE healed afterwards, that's why mitigation has always been sought after more than just health in games, even in WOW everyone focused more on mitigation than vitality for that reason. And to give an example, when first fighting twintania, a Paladin could survive Death sentence, even though it almost killed them outright sometimes. But a warrior could not. they could get hit for over 8k+. that sense changed later with added cooldowns and more gear, but ya at the START of progression, being able to SURVIVE the hit first then be healed. Is better than being healed afterwards as a forethought to battle

The concept behind Death Sentence is that without additional mitigation it'd oneshot a PLD with Shield Oath or a WAR with Defiance. Pre-buffs, WAR had pretty much nothing to respond to burst damage like that besides Defiance. Now they do with Storm's Path debuff, Inner Beast, Vengeance, and even clutch usage of Holmgang.

The postcount makes me wonder if we're just being trolled.

Eh, I got to point out the one actual difference in Defiance/Shield Oath that usually gets ignored in concept, and how it gets compensated so it can typically be ignored in practice.

[TheDirtyHobo]

using LOGIC you SERIOUSLY! believe that being able to be healed better AFTER a hit is taken, that you are generally better able to take the hit to begin with? weather you the EXTRA health you have and the lack of mitigation at the time between you and another tank, that information is only valuable if you know the values of the HIT and the Current Damage mitigation you have. But if you always focus on mitigation first you can be assured you will at least be able to survive the hit first to BE healed later.

Despite the fact that it's already been shown a dozen times in the thread, I'm going to waste my time and try to break this down for you a little.

Say both tanks have 7000 base HP. The warrior with Defiance on now has 7000*1.25 or 8750 HP. If you have a big hit, say, a Death Sentence, coming in that hits for 6000 damage unmitigated, you have your PLD taking 6000*0.8 or 4800 damage. Your WAR takes the full 6000 unmitigated.

So now, you've got a PLD sitting at 2200 HP, and a WAR sitting at 2750 HP. 2200 out of 7000 max HP is 31.428%. 2750 out of 8750 max HP is, shockingly, 31.428%.

But now, of course, you need to be healed back up so you can take the next big hit. Your PLD is missing 4800 HP. Let's say you've got WHM that cure1's for 1200 a pop. Naturally this will take 4 cures to cap you back up. But what about our poor Warrior, who's missing 6000 HP? Well, thanks to Defiance's healing bonus, each 1200 HP cure1 now becomes 1500 HP healed. Miraculously, this divides into 6000 giving us an even 4 cures to take you back to full HP.

Crazy how this shit works, isn't it?

[OWS_Tonx]

there's been like 4 dudes throwin math at him as proof and they refuse to accept it lol. Apparently he doesn't understand the concept of eHP.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Because content is totally tuned for 1tanking.

The kind of hit you'd be taking for the difference between a PLD surviving it and a WAR not is pretty pointless, because if the PLD would barely survive it they are most likely dead in 2 seconds from an autoattack or something.

[Raldo]

Your first post was a reply to a quote only addressing Defiance & Shield Oath. From a "Can this 1-shot me if I have full HP" standpoint, Shield Oath and Defiance are identical (20% mitigation is identical to 25% bonus to max HP). Now, once you're taking into account what's better for multiple monsters, and other available cooldowns, sure shit is situational. Big shocker.

[Obsidian]

Can we just ban him now?

[TheDirtyHobo]

Seravi, small error you made. You TAKE 3.3k damage, you HAVE 3.7k left. That puts both tanks at the ~52% mark.

[Brill Weave]

I can't believe you guys are arguing with someone who named themselves earnhardt. You're all terrible and should feel terrible.

[Seravi Edalborez]

Seravi, small error you made. You TAKE 3.3k damage, you HAVE 3.7k left. That puts both tanks at the ~52% mark.

Whoops.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Why is this even still a discussion. Mitigation will be king now and forever period. All the math ever known has said so.

[Feedmenow]

But now, of course, you need to be healed back up so you can take the next big hit. Your PLD is missing 4800 HP. Let's say you've got WHM that cure1's for 1200 a pop. Naturally this will take 4 cures to cap you back up. But what about our poor Warrior, who's missing 6000 HP? Well, thanks to Defiance's healing bonus, each 1200 HP cure1 now becomes 1500 HP healed. Miraculously, this divides into 6000 giving us an even 4 cures to take you back to full HP.

Hey, now, to be precise it's 1440 HP cured because the bonus healing is only +20%, not +25%. That means that per chunk of 6000 HP lost, the WAR would have to recover 240 HP through lifesteal to make up for the gap. Totally trivial, but but it's like the only thing that's even remotely worth mentioning about Shield Oath/Defiance at this point.