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  1. #121
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    I forgot, what parser did that vid use?

  2. #122
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    couldn't find a vid but

    http://i58.tinypic.com/2lnfurk.png

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black View Post
    couldn't find a vid but
    http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._attack_6m58s/

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seravi Edalborez View Post
    that one i saw , but parser i posted for Lucrezia group and there wasn't any vid for it i think

  5. #125
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    yeah, 123 combo, no fracture usage, extremely liberal use of poison pots but otherwise nothing special. That parse confuses the hell out of me unless poison pots can dish out over 50 dps overall.

  6. #126
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    http://puu.sh/b9u9p/9a848fe1a6.png

    No poison pots, strictly DPSing as OT. Was up around 365 towards end of fight, but dragged on a little long so I dropped, note 2 deaths by bards. I will hit 350.

  7. #127
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    Paladin VS Warrior : Battle of the Off Tank DPS

    I did a little comparison for myself this weekend. My dps war did 340 against a training dummy. My pld hovered around 275. The differences are in weapons I have a i110 on war vs i100 on pld. I also have 30 str on my war but 30 vit on pld. Obv storm's eye for my war rotation too. I can't imagine 10 ilevels, 30 str and storm's eye are going to make up 65 dps. I mean i guess it could... I don't buy OT pld as > war OT in dmg for even a bit. Maybe i'm fooling myself or starting to believe the nonsense?

  8. #128
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    Did a test with Seravi earlier, it's in the OP now, did a comparable amount of DPS to each other, warrior taking it overall with paladin edging out barely due to Storm's Eye.

    It kind of confirms what's already known that war MT really compliments the PLD OT with Storm's Eye.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Jorildyn View Post
    I did a little comparison for myself this weekend. My dps war did 340 against a training dummy. My pld hovered around 275. The differences are in weapons I have a i110 on war vs i100 on pld. I also have 30 str on my war but 30 vit on pld. Obv storm's eye for my war rotation too. I can't imagine 10 ilevels, 30 str and storm's eye are going to make up 65 dps. I mean i guess it could... I don't buy OT pld as > war OT in dmg for even a bit. Maybe i'm fooling myself or starting to believe the nonsense?
    I think people tend to overlook the fact that WAR has a means to turning off their damage reduction every so often while MTing. Unchained may not a benefit to PLD OT's DPS, but it's certainly a net increase to the party

  10. #130
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    All of this data about PLD doing more DPS than WAR is literally only based on ideal scenarios, and where a warrior is always feeding the PLD Storm's Eye. The fact of the matter is that encounters are much more dynamic than just that. Furthermore, the ONLY parses anyone has been of high dps paladin is turn 8? Why? Because they just have to stand there and spam 1>2>3. The video of the JP paladin who supposedly got 350 dps was also off tanking dread and getting lucky shield swipe procs, but that's besides the point. The heart of the matter is that PLD is a one trick pony and relies on warrior to better dps. In an encounter that requires more movement and target changing( turns 6,7,9) warrior will always win. Warrior is self sustaining, where we go, so does Storm's Eye.

    I'll gladly entertain any challenege from any paladin on any fight to try and do more dps than myself. While as inpressive as these numbers are, they represent one encounter in the entire game under the most ideal circumstances possible. Paladin plays an important role, but to try and tout them as a better DPS than warrior is a joke.

    As an aside...why are we only seeing JP paladins parsing over 300? The parse in this thread from the Lucreszia group old doing 336, and the original jp 349 dps paladain are the only parses I've seen of this even occurring. People keep making this out to be fact that PLD will out dps warrior, but why is no one else doing it? These guys are also padding numbers with poison pots. Something I'm not against trying, but take that into consideration when looking at raw numbers.

    To conclude, talk about theory all you want, but until there's consistent parses proving PLD doing more dps than warrior across the board, its all a crock of shit.

  11. #131
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    Don't think anyone is saying that PLD out DPS' WAR at this point anymore. Even in the parse with Seravi I only barely edged over him due to him buffing my damage by 10% and my higher DET. If anything, what all these parses do is reinforce that PLD + WAR combo is better overall.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbyprime View Post
    Don't think anyone is saying that PLD out DPS' WAR at this point anymore. Even in the parse with Seravi I only barely edged over him due to him buffing my damage by 10% and my higher DET. If anything, what all these parses do is reinforce that PLD + WAR combo is better overall.
    It just seems to me that the question is still up in the air. I only seek go stomp out the warrior doubt. I'd even go as far to say that 2 warriors is a better combo overall. PLD only really brings more sustained defense, which requires them to be main tank for benefit, and some other utility like Stoneskin, which requires them to stop dps. Cover is nice, but that just makes a healers job more annoying.

  13. #133
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    Under the assumption that an equal PLD buffed with SE is equiv. to a WAR. What are the benefits to a 2nd WAR?

    Under the assumption that a equal WAR is still stronger than a buffed PLD, how much DPS would be required to beat out the increased utility of a PLD.

    For simplicity sake I'm just going to say that Halone STR debuff is equiv to SP even though it's probably quite a bit weaker.

  14. #134
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    My argument is purely from an overall dps perspective. On all turns except Turn 8, 2 warriors would be the clear victory in terms of DPS. Warrior does more dps as main tank, and I argue they do more dps as off tank as well.

    IF the JP paladin parses are real, then Turn 8 is a little closer to call, but I still think warrior wins out. I've already provided parse proof that warrior can reach and even exceed the paladin numbers.

    As I stated before, if you want to consider paladin utility, then paladin will lose dps and warrior will easily pull ahead. The only reason paladin is coming close to warrior is because they're NOT utilizing their full skillset.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramset View Post
    My argument is purely from an overall dps perspective. On all turns except Turn 8, 2 warriors would be the clear victory in terms of DPS. Warrior does more dps as main tank, and I argue they do more dps as off tank as well.

    IF the JP paladin parses are real, then Turn 8 is a little closer to call, but I still think warrior wins out. I've already provided parse proof that warrior can reach and even exceed the paladin numbers.

    As I stated before, if you want to consider paladin utility, then paladin will lose dps and warrior will easily pull ahead. The only reason paladin is coming close to warrior is because they're NOT utilizing their full skillset.


    LB gauge could be the tie breaker? WAR blows out PLD while MTing and they are about even as OTs. If the healers are on the ball with Esuna for pacification then WARx2 would be top DPS combo.

    Also PLDs OT utility is pretty poor IMO.

  16. #136
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    the difference between paladin and warrior dps is so miniscule, you could run a 1000 trials of MT/OT WAR/PLD, WAR/WAR, PLD/WAR and it would be like at most a 1% difference which OT comes out on top. This is splitting hairs on the level of all STR classes fantasia-ing to highlander for the STR bonus. As in, even if we know which class THEORETICALLY has the edge, nobody is really going to care, people are going to go 1 PLD and 1 WAR and whoever is the better MT/OT is going to do that role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbyprime View Post
    I have no freaking idea how he got 350. His rotation is standard, there's nothing special about it, he's full time dps'ing without doing mechanics but it shouldn't be able to do 350. Most I've managed in spike DPS potential on PLD has been 290 using a i110 but that pretty much drops to under 250 once a minute rolls by.
    party buff, fairy buff, shield swipe, good food, fight ends in the middle of his FoF buff so he gets an extra "peak". IIRC he wasn't even using all i110 STR accessories so he could've gone higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Jorildyn View Post
    I did a little comparison for myself this weekend. My dps war did 340 against a training dummy. My pld hovered around 275. The differences are in weapons I have a i110 on war vs i100 on pld. I also have 30 str on my war but 30 vit on pld. Obv storm's eye for my war rotation too. I can't imagine 10 ilevels, 30 str and storm's eye are going to make up 65 dps. I mean i guess it could... I don't buy OT pld as > war OT in dmg for even a bit. Maybe i'm fooling myself or starting to believe the nonsense?
    come on. yes. a 100 to 110 weapon and 30 strength is going to add 65 dps.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaixin View Post
    the difference between paladin and warrior dps is so miniscule, you could run a 1000 trials of MT/OT WAR/PLD, WAR/WAR, PLD/WAR and it would be like at most a 1% difference which OT comes out on top. This is splitting hairs on the level of all STR classes fantasia-ing to highlander for the STR bonus. As in, even if we know which class THEORETICALLY has the edge, nobody is really going to care, people are going to go 1 PLD and 1 WAR and whoever is the better MT/OT is going to do that role.
    This is "true" based on math calculated on paper, and trial runs people have done against static training dummies. Show me a paladin OT doing 300 dps in turn 6. Show me a paladin doing 290 dps in turn 7. Show me any parse other than turn 8 which has an equally geared paladin and warrior with the paladin doing more dps.

    We are talking about dps in this thread right? To say people don't care is to discredit this entire thread.

    While I agree that at end of the day, people are going to play what's most comfortable for their group, the point of this discussion is to debate who is the better OT dps, warrior or paladin.

  18. #138

    I don't see how different fights are going to have any major effect on PLD vs WAR DPS.

    It's not like you're comparing SMN vs BLM which deal damage in vastly different ways.

    If anything, fights with more interruptions/downtime benefit PLD more than WAR because of SW and CoS.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramset View Post
    We are talking about dps in this thread right? To say people don't care is to discredit this entire thread.
    OK, sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I meant more the following:

    1) So far no one has proved anything conclusively
    2) therefore it might be that there is no significant difference between the two classes's DPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramset View Post
    This is "true" based on math calculated on paper
    "math", aka back of the envelope models with assumptions out the wazoo since we don't even know the actual equations running under the hood. Assuming X,Y, and Z, we get that a PLD OT will do 145.4 more potency per GCD than a WAR OT. is that a big difference? is that a small difference? what does that even mean? what happens when you add in X, Y, and Z?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramset View Post
    trial runs people have done against static training dummies.
    one-off trials that people have done with different amounts of strength, different weapons, different crits, different times. Sometimes the warrior did better. Sometimes the paladin did better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramset View Post
    Show me a paladin OT doing 300 dps in turn 6. Show me a paladin doing 290 dps in turn 7. Show me any parse other than turn 8 which has an equally geared paladin and warrior with the paladin doing more dps.
    You can one tank T6 and have the OT PLD DPS and definitely do 300. Same thing with T7. That OT can then go on WAR and do the same thing next week. Maybe he'll get more crits and do better, maybe he'll get less crits and do worse. I don't have any parses of it because PLD DPS is an off-meta idea, not because all the 30 STR/STR accessories PLDs out there are having difficulty getting 300.

  20. #140
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    In terms of pure DPS, I think the numbers are too easily manipulated by the fight / situation at the time. I honestly want to say that the fact that there is such a heated discussion means that SE did a good job in balancing the two jobs in terms of DPS potential and tanking ability. That being said, it will be extremely hard to test out true differences unless we start doing massive multi-run tests on stuff like T5, T8, T9, Ex Primals etc all running exactly same gear.

    On a seperate note, I'm actually curious whether PLD would have more significant gains with DET compared to WAR due to the addition of Sword Oath. My original guess back in 2.0 was that in terms of DPS, "eventually" PLD over overpower WAR with buffed auto-attacks, though I'll be honest and say I have nothing to back that up.

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