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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaixin View Post
    OK, sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I meant more the following:

    1) So far no one has proved anything conclusively
    2) therefore it might be that there is no significant difference between the two classes's DPS



    "math", aka back of the envelope models with assumptions out the wazoo since we don't even know the actual equations running under the hood. Assuming X,Y, and Z, we get that a PLD OT will do 145.4 more potency per GCD than a WAR OT. is that a big difference? is that a small difference? what does that even mean? what happens when you add in X, Y, and Z?



    one-off trials that people have done with different amounts of strength, different weapons, different crits, different times. Sometimes the warrior did better. Sometimes the paladin did better.
    We are in total agreement here lol. This is what I meant to convey as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaixin View Post
    You can one tank T6 and have the OT PLD DPS and definitely do 300. Same thing with T7. That OT can then go on WAR and do the same thing next week. Maybe he'll get more crits and do better, maybe he'll get less crits and do worse. I don't have any parses of it because PLD DPS is an off-meta idea, not because all the 30 STR/STR accessories PLDs out there are having difficulty getting 300.
    That's my point. Can you? Those are just words, I'm not expecting you to provide it, but that's why I want to see parse proof of these things, otherwise its meaningless. What's definitely true though is that there is a distinct lack of 30STR paladins so there's definitely less data, but to entertain the idea that PLD can match warrior OT dps we need this data.

  2. #142
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    Btw, anyone know roughly how much 2 WDMG would add to a parse? It's a multiplier so kind of hard, but I wanted to know a rough estimate on how much having an i115 weapon would add compared to an i110 weapon.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbyprime View Post
    In terms of pure DPS, I think the numbers are too easily manipulated by the fight / situation at the time. I honestly want to say that the fact that there is such a heated discussion means that SE did a good job in balancing the two jobs in terms of DPS potential and tanking ability. That being said, it will be extremely hard to test out true differences unless we start doing massive multi-run tests on stuff like T5, T8, T9, Ex Primals etc all running exactly same gear.
    All of these variables and being able to perform under any conditions is exactly what would define the best OT dps. Not the ability to stand still under ideal conditions. And I raised that point as well, we need to see data across all encounters not just turn 8, but I contest that warrior wil probably win acrross most, if not all encounters.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramset View Post
    All of these variables and being able to perform under any conditions is exactly what would define the best OT dps. Not the ability to stand still under ideal conditions. And I raised that point as well, we need to see data across all encounters not just turn 8, but I contest that warrior wil probably win acrross most, if not all encounters.
    Yeah, I agree that this testing needs to be done, but PLD has the unique handicap of requiring a WAR to perform properly in the OT position which tbh lowers their value. It requires not only a WAR on MT, but also a WAR running SE. This distinction already causes PLD to be inferior in most situations.

  5. #145
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    there is almost no complexity in how warriors and paladins put out single target damage (as in, both classes follow a strict combo and use off-GCDs ASAP), it's not like where if a target dies under 15 seconds SMN has a disadvantage, or if the target jumps for more than GL stays up, MNK has a disadvantage.

    if anything, WAR DPS stands to lose more due to complexity, since maim/storm's eye can get messed up. You could run 3 tanks with a MT and two WAR/PLD DPS, and the PLD can happily 1-2-3 all day and leave storm's eye to the WAR.

    Agree with the idea that SE balanced the two tank classes very closely, too close to tell.

  6. #146
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    There is the fact that PLD OT runs TP dry well before WAR and thus requires Paeon, which lowers the BRD's DPS.

  7. #147

    PLD and WAR go thru TP at the same rate when OT.

    Unless you count the 2 missed GCDs from Pacification or something.

  8. #148
    Tom Wilson will never be good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    PLD and WAR go thru TP at the same rate when OT.

    Unless you count the 2 missed GCDs from Pacification or something.
    Why wouldn't you count those?

    I guess quality esunas would negate it tho.

  9. #149

    Because aside from the fact that Pacification not being removed will lower the WAR's DPS, the ~130 TP every......36 GCDs is not gonna change the fact that both jobs will need Paeon eventually.

  10. #150
    Tom Wilson will never be good.
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    Just wailing on a dummy, my PLD is dry a min before my WAR, that is a min of shit dps or needing paeon to match WAR, which is pretty inferior. WAR also still keeps up/beats PLD even without Pacification getting removed btw.

  11. #151

    Oh well that's settled then, good thing your few minutes of personal parsing on test dummies has cleared everything up for us.

  12. #152
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    I do get most of my Pacifications Esuna'd. Keyword most, not all. Either way, TP goes quickly when there's no break in combat.

  13. #153
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    Cage's DPS is more important than yours anyways Zero!

    On a more serious note, not sure if TP is that big of a concern, T8 aside which tbh is a glorified dummy, are there many fights where you will get TP staved without some sort of break?

  14. #154
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    You can run dry in T7 pretty easily

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaixin View Post
    You can run dry in T7 pretty easily
    Can confirm. Run TP dry on T7 fairly often. Was worse when our group wasn't as geared. Now that we clear much more quickly (6:50? This week) it's not as big of an issue.

  16. #156
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    Hummm my group is still doing the /mdance strategy so TP is never an issue, should change that really.

  17. #157
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    If I'm ever running short on PLD MT I just spam Stoneskin a lot. T7 I tend to do it when I have Voice (and accidentally almost killed people this week because I was somehow targeting DRG with Voice on me, with facetarget on).

  18. #158
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    but in general PLD MTs should never run TP dry whenever a boss does physical damage

  19. #159

    Without any breaks in combat you're still going to run out eventually unless you're using a tidal wave shield and Swiping at every opportunity (which would be seriously detrimental to your hate).

  20. #160
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    Somewhat dependent on strategy but for the most part any fight with a break of some sort, a tank shouldn't run out of TP. T8 is just one of those fights where there is no instance of forced stops. Even T7 you could argue that there are "some" stops in the case of voice.

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