Air Traffic Control (Aviation Disaster thread)

[myreality]

Calling it now.

Langoliers 2
by Stephan King

[Indalecia]

http://jacobfoxx.com/wp-content/uplo...ent-Aliens.jpg

[Acevalefor]

An airplane exploding at 35k feet would not just disintegrate into nothing. There would be debris everywhere in the gulf waters. The most plausible explanation if it did indeed explode is that the debris field is so large and the remains so small that they are near impossible to spot from the air. The larger bits like the jet engines, landing gear, and hydraulic systems would sink, but things like seats, insulation, plastics, anything lightweight would still be floating.

I think Dr. Doofenschmirtz is involved in this somehow.

[octopus]

Definitely interested to see what happened, although my gut feeling is telling me the worst probably happened (everyone dead)...

[kuronosan]

We're not talking the Atlantic here. This is the gulf of Thailand.

[Tyrath]

I can't help but think that at this point everyone on the flight is dead. It's sad, but I'm not really seeing much of an alternative anymore :/

Hopefully this will drive interest in implementing more current technology into flights and stuff because from some of the reading I've been doing it seems that airplanes use a lot of outdated tech as far as radars and shit go.

[Xno Kappa]

I was under the impression planes in flight were always tracked by the air traffic controllers?

[Acevalefor]

the AVherald reports that a debris field has been found. I don't know how reliable this website is, so take it with a grain of salt.
http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0
http://avherald.com/img/malaysia_b77...d_140308_2.jpg

[TummieGaruda]

I can't help but think that at this point everyone on the flight is dead. It's sad, but I'm not really seeing much of an alternative anymore :/

Hopefully this will drive interest in implementing more current technology into flights and stuff because from some of the reading I've been doing it seems that airplanes use a lot of outdated tech as far as radars and shit go.

Sometimes it's pilot error along with outdated tech. I just finished watching the documentary about Air France 447 and that was caused by the wrong reaction by the pilots. The plane was in auto pilot and then the instrument that read air speed (Pitot Tubes which were known to temporarily fail) got clogged with ice crystals and after one minute of false readings, the auto pilot disengaged and one of the pilots thought they were going too fast because of the false reading and pulled the nose up causing the plane to stall. The other pilot also took control and tried to push the nose down to regain speed, but the other pilot was still pulling up so they were creating an equilibrium with the nose still pointing up and the plane just basically belly flopped in the ocean from 30,000+ feet.

[Acevalefor]

I was under the impression planes in flight were always tracked by the air traffic controllers?

Only in controlled airspace or if Flight Following is requested or mandated by an IFR flight plan. At any given time, there are approximately 5000 commercial aircraft in the air over the US. The radar coverage leaves large gaps in areas that cannot support a radio tower, so there are many flights that cannot be tracked at certain times. I have no idea what the numbers are for Asia but that should give you an idea.

[Tyrath]

Sometimes it's pilot error along with outdated tech. I just finished watching the documentary about Air France 447 and that was caused by the wrong reaction by the pilots. The plane was in auto pilot and then the instrument that read air speed (Pitot Tubes which were known to temporarily fail) got clogged with ice crystals and after one minute of false readings, the auto pilot disengaged and one of the pilots thought they were going too fast because of the false reading and pulled the nose up causing the plane to stall. The other pilot also took control and tried to push the nose down to regain speed, but the other pilot was still pulling up so they were creating an equilibrium with the nose still pointing up and the plane just basically belly flopped in the ocean from 30,000+ feet.

Oh, I wasn't talking about what caused the incident. I was talking about the cause for nobody being able to find the damn thing. Outdated tech has a very big hand in that, and from what I've read both airlines and airplane makers have been resisting changes in technology for a long time. This might be the push that's needed to get over that.

[Silenka]

It's sad when I hear about a news story I go to BG first to see if anyone's made a thread for it. I was surprised to see that there wasn't one yesterday. This is a big mystery all right, it's terrible that the plane just disappeared and all the families of 200+ people now have to sit around wondering what happened to their loved ones, not knowing if they'll ever see them again. I suppose there is always a slim chance that the plane went aground somewhere? Vietnam is full of jungle, isn't it? If it was in the ocean they probably would have found something by now. Or...maybe just aliens...

[TummieGaruda]

Oh, I wasn't talking about what caused the incident. I was talking about the cause for nobody being able to find the damn thing. Outdated tech has a very big hand in that, and from what I've read both airlines and airplane makers have been resisting changes in technology for a long time. This might be the push that's needed to get over that.

Ah gotcha. I don't know a lot about how planes are tracked but couldn't they put a GPS on a plane (unless they don't already have them).

[Jaybar]

These planes aren't running on rods and pulleys anymore. What kind of tech are we talking about? The airspeed indicator (using one of the oldest methods of tracking via Pitot Tube) are replaced with GPS systems that track ground speed - however airspeed is a required indicator for take-off's (as well as in-flight and landings) to determine how fast the wind is going over the wings to know whether or not there is enough lift before stalling. But ya, Pitot tubes are prone to problems (clogging due to icing or even bumble bees, lol).

[Dimmauk]

If a bomb exploded the plane over the ocean, then the debris would be difficult to find at first, but it would eventually wash ashore.

[Acevalefor]

Outdated tech has a very big hand in that, and from what I've read both airlines and airplane makers have been resisting changes in technology for a long time. This might be the push that's needed to get over that.

This is a huge problem in the airline industry. From commercial airliners all the way down to pilot trainers and even the curriculum and programs used to train pilots. We are still required to train as if electronics didn't exist. Redundancy is good and I want that safety net of knowing how to use VORs and ADF/NDBs to figure out my current position, but to not even allow pilots in training to use faster, more accurate GPS during their checkride is irresponsible and indicative of a systemic resistance to change. It goes beyond resistance to new technology in avionics as well. Want that new, efficient turboprop installed in your airplane? Nope. Not until you spend 2+ years in bureaucratic bullshit with the FAA to get it approved even though it is already approved for general aviation....bah, I'm rambling because I see, first-hand, everything that is wrong with the aviation industry and it's future.

Another little tidbit: For the first 3-10 years of a pilot's career, they make less than a PIC at any given grocery retailer. They also have to pay $100,000 (remember, average) worth of loans back during that time.

[Prim]

Being tracked by radar depends where you are. 90% of airspace in the US is monitored by radar at one station or another. Over the ocean however, you're on your own. Planes are required to stay in constant radio contact with a tower to give altitude, speed, etc., and you're tracked "manually" like that. All planes have transponders on them which return a unique identifier when pinged by a radar, so towers can keep track of which blip is which plane. Captains can manually change this identifier if necessary for emergency situations. One of my first lessons in flight school was how to change transponder codes, and how to avoid accidentally squawking an emergency code (7700 for emergency, 7500 for hijacking, etc.) since it sets off all kinds of alarms in the tower when a radar pings one.
As for new technology, it's almost entirely the FAA's fault. They're 20 years behind the technology curve and airlines/plane makers can't implement anything new until it gets their approval. It was only last year that they finally decided GPS would be a good idea to switch to.

Edit- What Ace said. >_>

[Jaybar]

I see what we are talking about now - everything Ace mentioned is what's fucked up with the Aviation field. It was my first career choice but I ducked out prior to even touching my IFR certificate due to the clusterfuck that a trainee has to go through to even get within arms reach of a Commercial license. I have plenty of friends that are now dealing with the larger issues at hand when it comes to progression.

However I do remember during my Private license training that we had specific checkrides for advanced electronics, but it was maybe 3-5 out of 20-30 flights, and that's assuming you get the decked-out plane for the purpose. Hell ILS approach was more fun that VFR and felt safer.

[ronin sparthos]

You should still be able to find chunks of the plane floating in the ocean.

If an aircraft explodes in midair (explaining no distress call) would it really be that easy to find wreckage considering how wide the debris field would be? Especially considering the amount of junk in the water on this part of the globe.

It took 2 years to find Air France 447s black box.

[kuronosan]

If an aircraft explodes in midair (explaining no distress call) would it really be that easy to find wreckage considering how wide the debris field would be?

It took 2 years to find Air France 447s black box.

You're looking for a small box in a huge ocean like the Atlantic with no idea where to look. Of course it took that long.

And considering they knew the area where it went down, it should be easy to find debris. It was the Gulf of Thailand, which isn't really that large given where they thought it should have exploded.