.DAT Mining: 3/17/2014 Update - Findings and Discussion

[Kanriel]

I kinda thought emnity for thf might help with Trick attack. you know that thing that puts hate onto others? Prolly doesnt hurt in the times you have thf evasion tanking. although i dunno if that happens as much these days. Better question is wtf is with the mp on thf dnc and i think mnk reforges?

Then put some on the +trick attack hands and call it a day. I don't need +enmity for the minute of melee and wsing when it's only useful for trick attack hate transfer. I pulled hate off the PLD about 2.5 minutes into the fight last night, when my preference would be to never pull hate off a PLD that I've been TA+WSing. Giving me more +enmity hampers my ability to play the job even more, I can't stand such a blatantly terrible itemization.

[Ihina]

Wear a Novia if you care so much about it. Quit whining.

[Fake]

Then put some on the +trick attack hands and call it a day. I don't need +enmity for the minute of melee and wsing when it's only useful for trick attack hate transfer. I pulled hate off the PLD about 2.5 minutes into the fight last night, when my preference would be to never pull hate off a PLD that I've been TA+WSing. Giving me more +enmity hampers my ability to play the job even more, I can't stand such a blatantly terrible itemization.

I can't stand such poor understanding of the game mechanics.

[Kanriel]

I can't stand such poor understanding of the game mechanics.

What poor understanding do you mean?

[Fake]

Your comments about pulling hate, capping enmity in 2.5 minutes shouldn't be a surprise regardless of whether or not you're wearing some enmity+ gear.

Unless up until this point you've been doing such terrible damage that you haven't pulled hate I really don't see how anything has changed. Yes you'll reach cap very slightly quicker, but it was going to happen in a negligible amount of time anyway if you aren't terrible.

More enmity on TA = more hate transferred, enmity+ has been a staple feature on thf specific gear since dynamis, its nothing new and it falls in line with its intended purpose.

[Alistrianna]

Your comments about pulling hate, capping enmity in 2.5 minutes shouldn't be a surprise regardless of whether or not you're wearing some enmity+ gear.

Pretty much this. Anytime I'm doing AA fights on D or VD, the PLD doesnt keep hate very long unless I'm turtling in PDT and not using an Acc set. If PDT set comes off, mob is usually looking my way shortly after. Damage is still the best source of emnity atm and PLD doesnt have the best accuracy in the world.

[Kanriel]

Your comments about pulling hate, capping enmity in 2.5 minutes shouldn't be a surprise regardless of whether or not you're wearing some enmity+ gear.

Unless up until this point you've been doing such terrible damage that you haven't pulled hate I really don't see how anything has changed. Yes you'll reach cap very slightly quicker, but it was going to happen in a negligible amount of time anyway if you aren't terrible.

More enmity on TA = more hate transferred, enmity+ has been a staple feature on thf specific gear since dynamis, its nothing new and it falls in line with its intended purpose.

Before it became easy to cap enmity, and back when DD could tank perfectly fine, there was no real issue with +enmity on THF gear, hell, I used to have +enmity merited because my evasion was so high during merit parties it was best for anything to be attacking me. But now a THF cannot survive so easily because evasion cannot be relied on and THF has the lower-end of hp and defense. Trick attack is once a minute, even with full merits it's only one attack every 50s. How many attacks does a THF get in between that single attack round? 40? 60? So you're saying it's just perfectly fine for gear to be itemized to be useful for 2-3% of attacks, despite it being the gear that's best for general melee usage?

Theoretically, I should be able to build hate slower than other jobs because of TA, which I always focus to be TA+WS on the tank early in fights. Combined with how +/- enmity effects damage reduction from AOE's, it means I shed hate slower than other DD from AOE, build it faster and overall gain it as fast as anyone, despite having mechanics built to make me slower. Now, I'd love to have better mechanics themselves (like hide working on bosses for hate resets, and a shorter timer) but better itemization is probably easier to ask for.

And THF hasn't been fulfilling its "intended purpose" for a long, long time. Collaborator and Accomplice are only half-useful since it will reduce enmity on a target, but locks the THF into tanking. And in any of the current endgame fights, you don't really want the THF to be tanking. The job is due for a revamp really badly, but not only is a revamp not yet here, but we're getting poor itemization on gearsets that will likely be around for quite a long time (I'd imagine we're going to be using 119 gear for another 1-3 years). It's hard to have high hopes for any potential revamp coming if they're itemizing us poorly.

[dasva]

Doesn't matter much anyone meleeing on any job amd actually hitting the mob is going to be capping enmity rather quickly amd keeping it capped is even bigger joke. Taking the +enmity off of thf or any other melee gear aint going to do jack 99.99% of the time. Every melee is going to be tanking until the hate reset makes it eat the mages or rngs in which case you'll be loving the +enmity. Pretty sure I could pull hate as a melee rdm/nin!

[NynJa]

If you're talking about AA's and you're there on THF (which you dont need to be in VD since TH is innately active, unless its your top job), you should be subbing nin instead of war, because they all have brutal AOE attacks.

[Fake]

Before it became easy to cap enmity, and back when DD could tank perfectly fine, there was no real issue with +enmity on THF gear, hell, I used to have +enmity merited because my evasion was so high during merit parties it was best for anything to be attacking me. But now a THF cannot survive so easily because evasion cannot be relied on and THF has the lower-end of hp and defense. Trick attack is once a minute, even with full merits it's only one attack every 50s. How many attacks does a THF get in between that single attack round? 40? 60? So you're saying it's just perfectly fine for gear to be itemized to be useful for 2-3% of attacks, despite it being the gear that's best for general melee usage?

Theoretically, I should be able to build hate slower than other jobs because of TA, which I always focus to be TA+WS on the tank early in fights. Combined with how +/- enmity effects damage reduction from AOE's, it means I shed hate slower than other DD from AOE, build it faster and overall gain it as fast as anyone, despite having mechanics built to make me slower. Now, I'd love to have better mechanics themselves (like hide working on bosses for hate resets, and a shorter timer) but better itemization is probably easier to ask for.

And THF hasn't been fulfilling its "intended purpose" for a long, long time. Collaborator and Accomplice are only half-useful since it will reduce enmity on a target, but locks the THF into tanking. And in any of the current endgame fights, you don't really want the THF to be tanking. The job is due for a revamp really badly, but not only is a revamp not yet here, but we're getting poor itemization on gearsets that will likely be around for quite a long time (I'd imagine we're going to be using 119 gear for another 1-3 years). It's hard to have high hopes for any potential revamp coming if they're itemizing us poorly.

I don't see how thf having enmity on these pieces of gear is relevant to anything you've just said. My initial point still stands, nothing has changed by you tping in a bit of extra enmity except you might reach the hate cap a few seconds faster.

Also what content other than NIN NIN THF strats for VD AAs, do you want to avoid taking enmity over the "tank". Thf can tank anything in delve as well as any other DD (except for the fact they do less damage) and there is no reason to be using a pld unless its for super tanking mobs or playing with jobs that can actively lower their enmity or generate little/none. Thf will have similar levels of defense when compared to any 'light armour' job and the hp gap is only large when compared to mnk.

Obviously ffxi is built around a flawed system, but thats not on debate here. Its your whining about Thf gear having completely inconsequential stats on them, that in no way affect how you are able to play the job.

[Kanriel]

I don't see how thf having enmity on these pieces of gear is relevant to anything you've just said. My initial point still stands, nothing has changed by you tping in a bit of extra enmity except you might reach the hate cap a few seconds faster.

Also what content other than NIN NIN THF strats for VD AAs, do you want to avoid taking enmity over the "tank". Thf can tank anything in delve as well as any other DD (except for the fact they do less damage) and there is no reason to be using a pld unless its for super tanking mobs or playing with jobs that can actively lower their enmity or generate little/none. Thf will have similar levels of defense when compared to any 'light armour' job and the hp gap is only large when compared to mnk.

Obviously ffxi is built around a flawed system, but thats not on debate here. Its your whining about Thf gear having completely inconsequential stats on them, that in no way affect how you are able to play the job.

You are right in that most of my complaints are part of a much bigger issue. But my main point would be: "What hope is there of fixing the flawed game if they're still making blatant mistakes?" The +enmity may not be overly consequential one way or the other, but it still shows they don't have the right idea about how the job presently operates.

Since my return to the game I largely see a dev team that has good ideas, and moves forward with good concepts, and most mistakes are things that didn't get implemented quick enough, or didn't account for all variables, pretty forgivable mistakes. But the +enmity on THF gear is not in line with that, it's closer to the old dev team that eventually made me quit the game.

[NynJa]

But its not a mistake...it hasnt been a mistake for 7 years.

[dasva]

But its not a mistake...it hasnt been a mistake for 7 years.

This so much. If meleeing in a couple of points of emnity on what is probably the worst dps melee job that can also place most of it's ws hate onto someone else makes the difference between you getting hate or not you're other melees/tanks need to shoot themselves. The only thing it will do if they fix the emnity system is make it easier for thf to keep hate off teh back line

[Kanriel]

This so much. If meleeing in a couple of points of emnity on what is probably the worst dps melee job that can also place most of it's ws hate onto someone else makes the difference between you getting hate or not you're other melees/tanks need to shoot themselves. The only thing it will do if they fix the emnity system is make it easier for thf to keep hate off teh back line

Sorry, I've never had the experience others have of THF's being weak and useless. I've always parsed pretty well anytime my THF is sufficiently geared in that era. I'm sure that for the last decade I've only played with terrible players or something...but me being significantly weaker than everyone else has never been an aspect of me playing this game.

[dasva]

Sorry, I've never had the experience others have of THF's being weak and useless. I've always parsed pretty well anytime my THF is sufficiently geared in that era. I'm sure that for the last decade I've only played with terrible players or something...but me being significantly weaker than everyone else has never been an aspect of me playing this game.

Parses only show which character does better dmg it makes no notes of job. I've outparsed everyone on every job over and over in vw on rng without shooting and only using wildfire before for example... just look at the job the stats and gear or fill out a spreadsheet. The dmg difference will be more than enough to make up a couple points of emnity gear

[Ihina]

I'll admit that the gap between thf and the top tier DDs in optimal play is pretty substantial, but it's pretty harsh to call it the worst dps melee job in the game.

The mandau alone is probably enough to put THF over at least DNC.

[Fake]

Sorry, I've never had the experience others have of THF's being weak and useless. I've always parsed pretty well anytime my THF is sufficiently geared in that era. I'm sure that for the last decade I've only played with terrible players or something...but me being significantly weaker than everyone else has never been an aspect of me playing this game.

THF is weak, just because you parse well against worse players doesn't mean anything. I have parsed 2x the damage of Oatixur mnks using Spharai, this doesn't mean spharai are 2x better than oats, just that there are plenty of shitty players out there.

Compared to MNK (and WAR SAM DRK DRG BLU), THF is significantly behind in terms of dps potential, that's not debatable with some anecdote about you out parsing an Oatixur mnk this one time at band camp.

[Trumpy]

I am pretty sure my dance can kill things faster than my thf. prolly cause i can ws more often. sometimes i feel like i dont play dancer like everyone else cause I seem to have completely different opinion about dancer (although in recent years more people seem to taken to the job). The fact that i havent seen anyone else agree with you or heard anyone else anywhere other than here complain about enmity on the gloves or whatever tells me it isnt a mistake. I think its generally a good idea to have some kind of enmity on all DDs just so they might have more than mages when it is needed.

[Fake]

Dnc also has the ability to self skillchain and can use Saber Dance when it knows it won't be needing waltz, these easily put it ahead of thf.

One place thf is a good DD is AAs on VD using NIN strats, thats about it.

[NynJa]

You're mad because AA's have enmity? Fine, swap em in, tag the mob, then use iuitl or pillager, or anything without enmity. Whats the big deal?