.DAT Mining: 3/17/2014 Update - Findings and Discussion

[Ihina]

Yeah, I'm still going to have to disagree. You gain 15~% DA overall and the ability to self skillchain, in a group situation with WSs constantly going off, using weak WSs against anything that matters. I don't see how that's supposed to sound impressive; THFs have natural 11% TA, and yeah, Mercy Stroke is pretty strong.

I'll admit though that I've never played with what we'd call a 'decent' DNC before. I know Sylow was pretty gung ho about his DNC but it wasn't even close between me and him.

[cosworthrs]

Has anyone found out what the skill up range is for campaign battles yet?

[dasva]

Yeah, I'm still going to have to disagree. You gain 15~% DA overall and the ability to self skillchain, in a group situation with WSs constantly going off, using weak WSs against anything that matters. I don't see how that's supposed to sound impressive; THFs have natural 11% TA, and yeah, Mercy Stroke is pretty strong.

I'll admit though that I've never played with what we'd call a 'decent' DNC before. I know Sylow was pretty gung ho about his DNC but it wasn't even close between me and him.

So let me get this straight you are trying to say that 11% TA and a ws that is only good with TA or SA is enough to beat 50% DA, accuracy bonus 3, faster attack speed, varoius debuffs all the flourishes etc? Also rudra's is pretty strong when force critted too which ya know dncs can do. And if we are getting into relic vs not well than let's pull out empyrean or mythic for dnc

[NynJa]

force crit isnt exactly on the same terms as SA/TA crit

[dasva]

True. On the other hand in the situation of so many melees spamming ws to stop skillchains you probably going to have a hard time lining up SA without losing dps waiting to ws

[Trumpy]

my crit WSes on either job are bout the same, with dnc prolly a slight bit higher. and if i ever get a SC off with a group or solo (i will get the SC off unless the mob uses that well timed stun/sleep/encumber/TPreset that manages to prevent the SC from going off) the WSes tend to do much better. All i know is for instance in dynamis it takes me forever to kill a mob on thf compared to on dnc, granted with some of todays gear i literally have to turn to not just murder everything if im lookin for procs. Also if i am solo on THF i am most likely not gonna get to use either SA/TA unless bully is up.

but back to the issue of enmity does enmity help when using collaborator, just curious.

[Martel]

but back to the issue of enmity does enmity help when using collaborator, just curious.

Purely speculation, but I would suspect that enmity gear will only affect the enmity from using the JA at all. I think It's unlikely that it would enhance the value of the stolen enmity. Or increase the amout of enmity removed from the target player.

But really, need testing to be sure. <,<

[Shenrien]

Dnc also has the ability to self skillchain and can use Saber Dance when it knows it won't be needing waltz, these easily put it ahead of thf.

One place thf is a good DD is AAs on VD using NIN strats, thats about it.

In what magical fantasy land do you think you're going to get some self skillchain off when you have 2-3 other DD beating on a target all ws at free will with capped magic and gear haste?

[Tachi]

Altana's Favor AoE range is huge : 20' centered around the target. Cait Sith must be at 13,5' or less from his target to hit with Altana's Favor/Raise II/Reraise II.
Regal Scratch is Slashing damage.

[Byrthnoth]

Gearing options being equal, DNC should not really outparse THF when they're in a party together because all of DNC's advantages are party-wide buffs or alliance-wide debuffs or are directly balanced out by something THF gets.
* Haste Samba is party-wide
* Box Step / Quick Step / Feather Step (depending on situation) are alliance-wide
* 25-20% DA from Saber Dance = 11% TA
* Accuracy Bonus III and Closed Position vs. Feint half the time

Harder to quantify:
* Terpsichore PK spam vs. TA Mercy Stroke every 50 seconds and SA Mercy Stroke when the situation allows it
* Treasure Hunter vs. greater durability when the situation calls for it


If you were worried that about your damage output and had a good player with both jobs pimped out, you should bring their Dancer for Haste Samba and to have someone that will actually land Steps. However, if they could parse against themselves then I'd be unsurprised if the THF won.


As far as Skillchains being viable, it's true that I don't always complete self-skillchains that I attempt in groups, but keeping an eye on TParty and seeing when it's possible to skillchain does have its advantages:

Dmg: Byrth 54692(38.2%), RNG 33648(23.5%), PLD 20991(14.7%), MNK 20439(14.3%)
Skillchain(Byr.) 12440(8.7%), Skillchain(PLD) 562(0.4%), COR 414(0.3%)

Disclaimers:
1) This was an AA MR normal shout group without a bard. It's obviously a less than ideal parsing situation that makes skillchaining a little easier, but if you keep an eye on the most recently used WS and know skillchain properties, it's possible for any DD to milk a little more damage out of it. In groups with Marches, most of the WSs you will be skillchaining off of will not be your own, so there's no real advantage for DNC there.
2) I'm super rusty. I made a 99 Daurd/G-horn in September or so and didn't play anything else in parties until I finished Terpsichore last week.
3) I spent about half the fight using Fan Dance and was charmed from 25-10%. My hit rate was also pretty shit due to the lack of madrigals (~77% even when maintaining Quickstep, PK, and Rudra's and eating Sushi) and if I was doing it over then I'd probably just use AM1 instead of maintaining AM3. That said, this was a situation where Feint would have been very useful because the MNK and PLD were parsing 50% hit rate or lower.

[Trumpy]

Also even if an actual Self SC isnt achieved the dnc is still WSing twice about every 30 seconds (possibly) or perhaps every other WS if you are hittin 100 tp before your timers are up and not wanting to hold tp. At least if you play how i play (i have a mule with me in most situations to cure me so i usually am not holding tp for cures or anything.) If you have no foot rise, you can also force crit both WSes in your skill chain (5 FMs > Climactic > NoFootRise > WS > Reverse > WS) every 3 mins. I realize though that things are different in group situations. Also I dont have 119 armor or weapons for either job (well i got the dnc head to 119 but havent really got to mess with it since i made it, been focusing on other stuff.) nor have i done any AA fights.

It always seemed crazy to me how I could use Haste Samba and before the animation is done I could have built the tp i just spent on the samba even without haste or brd songs. Sometimes my dnc hits at what looks like hundred fist speed, I think it just feels so different to me because before SE started throwing a lot of haste on everything, I never was even close to haste capped on any job. I definitely notice the difference playing on my mnk that i finally finished gettin to 99 this month (it was at 90 cap since that level cap occured and my first job to 75 back in the day) between having haste cap and not all those years ago when i used to play the job a lot. It is definitely bringing me my love for monk back.

[Fwahm]

WSing twice every 30 seconds is pretty slow if you're talking about capped haste situations.

[Fake]

In what magical fantasy land do you think you're going to get some self skillchain off when you have 2-3 other DD beating on a target all ws at free will with capped magic and gear haste?

In what magical land are you always playing with a group of people.

Obviously self skill chaining is only relevant when it's relevant. Dnc is most commonly seen soloing or in small groups and thf hasn't had a worthwhile spot (delve/skirmish don't require TH, Rng are better at AA) in parties since before adoulin unless you doing melee strats on AAs.

If you are in a group with full buffs then dnc still wins because haste samba and steps brings everyone else up and dnc will definitely do more than a thf/dnc trying to achieve the same effect. If you are solo/duo with low buffs then dncs ability to skill chain and thfs lack of ability to SA outside of bully (and maybe not even TA if you're only there with a mage who won't be getting in melee range) will obviously favour dnc.

If you have a dnc and a thf both fully buffed in alliance setting, but why would you since they both suck at dps compared to other jobs, then sure maybe thf can do better. I would rather take a more pragmatic approach though since analysing which DD is at the bottom of the pile isn't really relevant to those settings.

Thf remains an weak DD who is primarily there to service drops, and currently there is very little end game content that actually calls for TH.

Dnc is also a weak DD and its utility to end game content is even more niche than Thf because haste samba can be covered by Cor/Dnc.

[Sechs]

because haste samba can be covered by Cor/Dnc.

I agree with what you're saying, not so much about this last part.
Saying you don't need haste samba because of haste/embra/marches/shit is one thing and I'd agree with that.
Saying that Haste Samba can be efficiently kept up by a ranged job /DNC is stretching it, imho.
It has half the strenght (5% vs 10%), it lasts like, what, less than half the time it does on DNC main? And good luck keeping it up on a job like COR. That means staying in range and it also means hitting the target constantly because if you don't reapply it it wears off the target eventually.
Also good luck doin that while rolling, stayin alive and swapping pts.

Unless you can (re)apply it with Ranged attacks... if that's true then I guess your point does stand a bit :D

[Fake]

Where are you getting the idea that cor can't melee?

Not sure why people are swapping parties either since everything except DM D/VD is 6man (including new delve). 5% Haste Samba is enough to cap out any jobs that were missing the last bit of haste to 80% so its nerfed potency is irrelevant.

Obviously the shittier the players in a group the less chance you have of supporting these more aggressive setups, but considering the initial debate was about thf and dnc, you wouldn't want those jobs in your setup anyway.

I'm also not referring to harder difficulty AA fights since rng pld is king there.

[NynJa]

Why would you do non-VD AA's without a THF?

[Fake]

I wouldn't do non-VD AAs period.

Edit: Couldn't find link to the update at first

The effects of Treasure Hunter are now active in the following high-tier mission battlefields at the “Very Difficult” setting.

[dasva]

Regardless the initial point was thf isn't such a crazy awesome DD that 3-4% more enmity gained per hit is going to make it tank over every other melee

[Xenhas]

You're trolling, right?

[Trumpy]

The enmity thing is what started the whole discussion of dnc and thf. And on my last post i didnt mean dnc only doing 2 ws every 30 seconds. i meant dnc is doin 2 WS to a thfs one just thru JA use. they can ws between if they get tp before timers are ready.