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  1. #61
    Yoshi P
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    How would it have increased development time to scrap classes.
    ? Starting something from scratch takes a lot more time than reusing existing structures. This is common sense. Especially if old resources needs to tie into the new.

  2. #62
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    I'm not sure where all this anger is coming from, Niro. The jobs are very different from how they were in 1.0. Whether they are more "useful" than their 1.0 counterparts is irrelevant: 1.0 was a broken game.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    No, they didn't have all of the "freedom" (time) in the world to completely to scrap classes at level 30 or make them relevant beyond that.
    You say this as if they did not take extra time to specifically nerf classes (e.g. added Cleric Stance restrictions in 2.0).

    If they had the time they would have done so, at the expense of players waiting even longer for 2.0.
    Uhh, what?

    Classes are completely pointless now. How much extra time would it have taken to make another system where they are just-as-useless? 2.0 took 2 years to develop, even with most of the art assets in place... how much more time do you think would have been added? And why do you believe legacy players would revolt against a system where classes are obsoleted, when classes are already obsoleted now?

    You're giving Yoshi too much slack. He already made drastic changes to the game; he could have made slightly more aggressive changes without much clamor.

  4. #64

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadgye View Post
    ? Starting something from scratch takes a lot more time than reusing existing structures. This is common sense. Especially if old resources needs to tie into the new.
    ......they would have just taken what they made but scrapped calling them classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucavi View Post
    I'm not sure where all this anger is coming from, Niro. The jobs are very different from how they were in 1.0. Whether they are more "useful" than their 1.0 counterparts is irrelevant: 1.0 was a broken game.
    I don't know what you're trying to say here?

    Classes were useless in 1.0, they decided to keep them in 2.0 while keeping them just as useless with the added bonus of the class/job system making their own development plans more complicated.

    ex. "all classes will eventually have 2 jobs" becomes "aw shit, we didn't think this through"

  5. #65
    BG's most likeable Québécois
    Pens win! Pens Win!!! PENS WIN!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    ......they would have just taken what they made but scrapped calling them classes.


    I don't know what you're trying to say here?

    Classes were useless in 1.0, they decided to keep them in 2.0 while keeping them just as useless with the added bonus of the class/job system making their own development plans more complicated.

    ex. "all classes will eventually have 2 jobs" becomes "aw shit, we didn't think this through"

    Classes wern't all useless in 1.0 Jps were using THM alot for AOE Sanguine Rite

  6. #66
    Bagel
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    Thanks Slycer for the translation.

    Similar to when we first added extreme Leviathan and Moggle Mog XII in the 2.2 patch, it won’t be available via Duty Finder at first.
    Why the fuck do you do this? I don't give a shit that Japanese players want to use DF for actually clearing Extremes, I liked that shit in older Primal fights for practice and after that join some PF parties. So I can at least say I have some experience in the fight which PF demands on day 1 of course.

    Also love how Yoshida completely misses the point to getting people back to the game when the interviewer even mentions the discontent about fixed parties for Coil. Keep ignoring the feedback Yoshida, you know what Tanaka got for that in the end...

  7. #67

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratatapa View Post
    Classes wern't all useless in 1.0 Jps were using THM alot for AOE Sanguine Rite
    I pointed that out in my original post.

    Wasn't a JP thing, I went THM to every Ifrit.

  8. #68
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appie View Post
    Also love how Yoshida completely misses the point to getting people back to the game when the interviewer even mentions the discontent about fixed parties for Coil. Keep ignoring the feedback Yoshida, you know what Tanaka got for that in the end...
    Yeah, i'm not sure why this whole "accessibility is the issue" thing keeps going over his/the developers' heads. Difficulty is more or less fine (still, fuck Turn 7), but holy fucking shit can I please play with all my friends/FC? I don't even care if I get not even Tomestones for things past my first clear (though a loot lockout kicking in after I actually win something would make up for this fucking RNG and no Fending, ever).

  9. #69
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
    You were cold as ice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    You say this as if they did not take extra time to specifically nerf classes (e.g. added Cleric Stance restrictions in 2.0).


    Uhh, what?

    Classes are completely pointless now. How much extra time would it have taken to make another system where they are just-as-useless? 2.0 took 2 years to develop, even with most of the art assets in place... how much more time do you think would have been added? And why do you believe legacy players would revolt against a system where classes are obsoleted, when classes are already obsoleted now?

    You're giving Yoshi too much slack. He already made drastic changes to the game; he could have made slightly more aggressive changes without much clamor.
    I'm not giving him any slack, I'm only giving him the respect he deserves for the turn around with ARR. I know that classes are pointless in both 1.0 and 2.0 -- in fact I've mentioned it numerous times in the past myself, so I'm not oblivious to the current situation. I will also say this, and it might sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but I don't think legacy players would have revolted. I simply meant that Yoshi-P planned in such a way in the best interest of the players at the time (in a decent time frame), who were almost all legacy players.

    However, people are neglecting to rationalize just how much planning and work it took to pull off what he did. I won't pretend to know the fine points to the process of what he did, but he essentially did this:

    1) Had numerous meetings and pow-wows with staff to ascertain the current state of 1.0.
    2) Corporate shake up, removed people who needed to be removed from FFXIV project.
    3) Plan future content for 1.0 up until 1.23.
    4) Brought on extra staff to work on 1.0 content.
    5) Had numerous meetings and pow-wows to plan 2.0 content.
    6) Planned future content for 2.0.
    7) Build new engine for 2.0.
    8) Shut down 1.0 and hire more staff for 2.0.
    9) Have old assets 1.0 re-purposed for 2.0.
    10) Have 1.0 music re-purposed for 2.0.
    11) Re-draw old zone mock ups for 2.0 and redesigned the older areas.
    12) Draw concept art for 2.0.
    13) Draw new models for 2.0 from concept art.
    14) Localization for US & EU areas.
    15) Adapt 2.0 content for PS3.
    16) Meetings with Legal for localization and regional.
    17) Meetings with higher up execs for payment plans and added incentives (Mog Station, Collector's Edition).
    18) Hold multiple meetings for PR 2.0 release purposes around the world.
    19) Hold meetings for Collectors items and game memorabilia with artists, music team, etc.

    I could have broken these steps down into many more steps by including dev team coordination, extra planning phases, general programming, quality checks, debugging and more quality checks, but everyone can get the jist of it (It also does not include the fact that most tasks had multiple phases and revisions in them). We all want to say that "oh, he could have just done this, this and this, easy!," but in reality, Yoshi-P had to make over 400 executive decisions right on the spot, and not have his team deviate from the course too much so they could release the game on schedule.

    Just looking at the class system, it's VERY likely that he had multiple options available to him for 1.0 & 2.0 (including scrapping the entire system), and he chose to stay with the plan we currently see. The process of completely abolishing a system for a new one is still a very long process that includes thinking of new ideas, proof of concept and method of implementation, then making sure it actually fits the story of FFXIV. Then after all of that he and crew would have to run it back and actually spend much of the time testing multiple iterations of the system, then bring it back to the drawing board if the system was not up to par. It's just not something you can do in a day, or even in 4-6 months. You can't just delete classes out of the system and call them jobs straight up. The process simply does not work this way, no matter what anyone thinks. I digress however; I don't expect people to understand or care how the process of creating or recreating a game works.

    I'm gonna make a logical guess based on this these facts that he went with a much simpler and easy option that took up less time.

  10. #70
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    So basically, you're saying that since he had a lot of things to do, the path he chose was necessarily the simplest and easiest one? That's incorrect, as the simplest and easiest option would have been to keep the existing system. Q.E.D.

    I'm not sure why you continue to defend Yoshi's choices in the class/job system when Yoshi himself just said, "oops, we didn't really think too far ahead and we might have to re-do it."

  11. #71
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
    You were cold as ice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    So basically, you're saying that since he had a lot of things to do, the path he chose was necessarily the simplest and easiest one? That's provably false, as the simplest and easiest option would have been to keep the existing system. Q.E.D.

    I'm not sure why you continue to defend Yoshi's choices in the class/job system when Yoshi himself just said, "oops, we didn't really think too far ahead and we might have to re-do it."
    Yes, it likely was the easiest option that he had available, considering his options. It's not only the fact that he gets these options, but he would get the options alongside the proof of concept and overall development time. You may continue to believe his option is stupid or wrong, but he chose an option that worked for the time he needed. The simplest option was not to keep the existing system, because he had to plan for a system that fit the engine & game play for 2.0. Not that simple.

    I'll continue to defend it, all things considered. He made executive choices for a dying game. People plan for something, implement it, then later on down the line find that it wasn't as good or as optimal a plan as they thought. It's very common when it comes to developing video games and music... it's not anything new. However, he earned my respect for doing something that amazing, and unheard of in the MMO community. "We really didn't think too far ahead" means much more than what you are thinking, as they say such things from a humbling JP mindset.

  12. #72
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Dude, calm down. No one is calling for Yoshi to be fired, so your "But his job was really hard!" defense is unnecessary.

    Yes, he had a tough task.
    Yes, he did a good job with it, better than could be reasonably expected.
    No, that doesn't mean that the implementation of classes isn't broken.

  13. #73
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
    You were cold as ice.

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    Nah man, we cool. Sorry if I came off as raging and such. I'm just more passionate about subjects concerning game development, as it's very similar to software development. No ill will in my posts to you or Niiro. The system is definitely no longer up to par with the current metagame as well as the future meta, and it's too rigid for future job planning.

    Best quality about Yoshida is that he's willing to look back and change mistakes, so essentially it's not even a big deal.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    Best quality about Yoshida is that he's willing to look back and change mistakes, so essentially it's not even a big deal.
    So your saying this game is going to go Free to play right?.. j/k

    But ya, this is one of the best qualities of Yoshida.

  15. #75
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    FYI, since this conversation pretty much spiraled out of control on the class thing, here's some clarification from the Famitsu transcript (first translation was Game Watch), added/changed text in red. Basically everything in the two transcripts was similar enough that it would be pointless to re-translate/update anything.

    __________


    Last year when Scholar was introduced at E3, it was mentioned that it would branch off from the same class as Summoner, and this would be a mechanic that would be used more, but it has yet to happen for any other class. You haven’t announced anything yet, but are there any other plans to introduce anything like this? For example, another swordsman besides Paladin?


    Well, we need to look into this and whether we want to keep that plan, it’s something we have to consider as we add new jobs and classes. One of the more difficult things with the system is that when a job is derived from a class, it's tied to the class's actions. Also, when we make multiple jobs from one class, the weakness with having multiple jobs branch out of one class without being able to freely switch stats around is exposed. This wasn’t a problem initially because both of those jobs were simultaneously added and it was planned from the start, but now we have to carefully think about this. One thing we could consider, for example, is a hybrid job derived from more than one class, but it may change depending on what we want to add. The number of jobs will increase even further with 3.0 (the expansion pack), and at that point we might decide on an entirely new mechanism, so please hang on for further details.

  16. #76
    YOU BLACK, MIDNIGHT, EVIL MOTHERFUCKERS!!! BLACK MAGIC, DARKNESS!!! YOU RAW, DARKNESS!!! YOU, FUCKING, DELIRIOUS MOTHERFUCKER!
    You were cold as ice.

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    It sounds like their hybrid mechanism they have currently developed is also tied to the class system (they must require cross class skills), which is a shame. Definitely going to be interesting how they revise this system without adversely changing up the metagame, which invariably will change regardless.

  17. #77
    Piece of shit Bruins fan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sho View Post
    It sounds like their hybrid mechanism they have currently developed is also tied to the class system (they must require cross class skills), which is a shame. Definitely going to be interesting how they revise this system.
    I'm looking forward to it.

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