Supreme Court: Can't make employers cover contraception

[Tyche]

"This decision concerns only the contraceptive mandate and should not be understood to hold that all insurance-coverage mandates, e.g. for vaccinations or blood transfusions, must necessarily fall if they conflict with an employer’s religious beliefs." - Justice Alito

Waaaaaaaaaat lol. So they acknowledge that not all religious beliefs are created equal and it's OK to stomp on women's rights? Holy mindfuck.

[Drex]

Waaaaaaaaaat lol. So they acknowledge that not all religious beliefs are created equal and it's OK to stomp on women's rights? Holy mindfuck.

No, they argued that if other religions have other theological objections to the ACA then they can challenge it on a case-by-case basis. It's just a warning to lower courts not to interpret the ruling as a sweeping precedent. Presumably, if some yahoo says "providing blood transfusions violates my religion", it could be appealed to the S.C. (afaik the ACA doesn't require blood transfusions the way it requires contraceptive coverage so maybe not; remember that the RFRA only applies to federal laws)

Point being that any business owner can now create a small subsidiary that is "family owned", provided it isn't publicly traded, and just claim religious persecution to continue denying basic rights to their employees.

Fails the "controlled group" stipulations of the ACA

[Xantavia]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/02/up...088400000&_r=2

Stuff about pharmacists.

This is really just a long line of attempts from the conservative right to limit or prohibit contraception, particularly female contraception. They've always hated and it's no surprise they don't want it included in insurance even if medical organizations suggest that it should.

I've always likened this to a waitress a diner. Would they have a right to refuse to serve somebody meat on Fridays because their religion says you shouldn't eat it? If not, then pharmacists better damn well fill prescriptions if the product is in the building.

[Blubbartron]

The annual penalties for offering female employees insurance without deductible/copay-free contraceptive coverage would have been 20x the annual penalty of dumping all employees onto the exchanges. Not only is that burden substantial, but, as the justices conceded, there are ways the government can give women access to contraceptives that are not as punitive to objectors (less restrictive to the religious). Therefore the religious freedom test was failed, burden or not.

If more and more aspects of the ACA are challenged on this front we'll end up with UHC, which was where we should have started anyway. Politicians and SC are kicking that ball back and forth.

No. That's not how the religious freedom test works, and you wrote it up yourself. The government only has to prove there's no way to do it in a less burdensome way if the other party proves that they cannot practice their religion because of some law. The fact that paying for insurance is not a burden on practicing religion means the other party failed to prove that there was any hindrance whatsoever to their religious freedom, and therefore the ruling is complete and utter horseshit.

In other words, one party has to say "look, the government is hurting us, can't you do something about it SC?" and if the SC is sufficiently convinced that they are being hurt (this is required - they must be hurt to have a grievance against the law), the SC turns to the government and says "well government, are you doing this for good reason, and if so, is there no other way that would hurt these people less?" If they aren't being hurt, then the idea that they could be hurt "less" is nonsensical. That's why it's a 2-step process of proof.

[Kuya]

The anti-gay groups are already starting to say they want to use this ruling to deny benefits to same sex couples on the grounds of religious objections in place of employment. Here's hoping the supreme court didn't just screw us all over.

[Aksannyi]

Oh I don't like where this is going if that's true.

[Waraji]

LOL I DO like where this is going. Straight to the Fan.

[Kuya]

There are two ways to look at this. What percentage of Americans self-identify as Christian and what percentage of Americans "act-out" their faith. To identify if someone acts on their faith in a way capable of being measured, you need an outside condition: Attending services, donating time to a church, synagogue, or place of worship, donating money (tithing) or other resources, etc.

Approximately 75%-80% of the Americans self-identify as Christians (I'm lumping Christian and Catholic together in the Christian heading, even though I personally believe them to be separate faiths):

Pew Research: 78% (51.3% Christian, 23.9 Catholic) http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
Gallup Politics: 75% (51.9% Christian, 23.3 Catholic) http://www.gallup.com/poll/159548/id...christian.aspx

Doesn't look like Christians are the minority from that. How do they spend their Sunday mornings?

Huffington Post: Less than 20% of Americans attend church once a week. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-...b_4086016.html
Church Leaders: Also says less than 20% attend church. http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors...n-america.html

So if they are going to church, they probably tithe right?

News Observer: About 3% of Americans tithe (Don't blame me that the article talks about Romney). http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/02/...ops-to-an.html
Barna Group: About 5% of Americans tithe. https://www.barna.org/barna-update/c...g#.U7HdprH5e_Q
Christianity Today: About 10%-25% of church goers tithe (so about 2%-5% of the general population). http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...tml?paging=off

So what does this mean?

Regularly attending, tithing members of congregations are absolutely in the minority in America.
Those who attend church but don't tithe are a minority in America.
Those who self-identify as being a "Christian" are not in the minority in America.

Is Egon a regularly attending, tithing member of his congregation and hence feels like a member of a minority or simply expressing his white outrage over the anonymous internet where consequences never matter?

I had read an article once by an ex fundamentalist christian. He basically said what you just said. Even though the vast amount of people identify as christian, only a minority are fundamentalist about it. Implicit in this feeling of being besieged and oppressed is the belief that the only true christian is a fundamentalist one.

[Cleveland_7795]

FYI..

Hobby Lobby has/still does/and will cover 27 different types of contraception (pills, shots, etc). They only exclude the 4 types that could possibly abort a fertilized egg. So ypou can get off your "they cover vasectomie" soap box. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.

Oh..and no law requires a women at anytime to work there. Don't like it, go somewhere else. They only sell shit from China, they aren't actual China.

[Aksannyi]

If you think this is just about birth control then I hate to break it to you ...

Yes, that is a partial injustice against women but the bigger issue is the (now legal) imposition of religious beliefs onto another.

[Sepukku]

FYI..

Hobby Lobby has/still does/and will cover 27 different types of contraception (pills, shots, etc). They only exclude the 4 types that could possibly abort a fertilized egg. So ypou can get off your "they cover vasectomie" soap box. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.

Oh..and no law requires a women at anytime to work there. Don't like it, go somewhere else. They only sell shit from China, they aren't actual China.

This was never specifically about sexually active women at Hobby Lobby, its about the precedent this would set if the ruling went the way it did. But hey, don't let complex thought get in the way of your ignorant posting.

[Salodin]

This thread, news stories, and the worst of our Facebook feeds started as just that, women's rights being trumped. The last two are still running with it.

And, as quoted earlier, the sc warned against using this as a precedent to just deny coverage on everything based on religious grounds.

If what was posted earlier about hobby lobby still covering the pill is true, excluding the ones that might prevent pregnancy after conception, then every one has no leg to stand on. Like I said earlier, from a religion stand point, the pill isn't bad but if it causes termination after conception then the bible thumpers have a problem with it. If you firmly believe life begins at conception then yea, you have a problem with that specific mandate of the ACA; fortunately for you it got fixed and now you have nothing to moan about other then lower then extraordinary profits.

[kuronosan]

FYI..

Hobby Lobby has/still does/and will cover 27 different types of contraception (pills, shots, etc). They only exclude the 4 types that could possibly abort a fertilized egg. So ypou can get off your "they cover vasectomie" soap box. But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.

Oh..and no law requires a women at anytime to work there. Don't like it, go somewhere else. They only sell shit from China, they aren't actual China.

FYI, shut the fuck up.

Oh and when you're done...

Shut the fuck up.

[Egon]

There are two ways to look at this. What percentage of Americans self-identify as Christian and what percentage of Americans "act-out" their faith. To identify if someone acts on their faith in a way capable of being measured, you need an outside condition: Attending services, donating time to a church, synagogue, or place of worship, donating money (tithing) or other resources, etc.

Approximately 75%-80% of the Americans self-identify as Christians (I'm lumping Christian and Catholic together in the Christian heading, even though I personally believe them to be separate faiths):

Pew Research: 78% (51.3% Christian, 23.9 Catholic) http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
Gallup Politics: 75% (51.9% Christian, 23.3 Catholic) http://www.gallup.com/poll/159548/id...christian.aspx

Doesn't look like Christians are the minority from that. How do they spend their Sunday mornings?

Huffington Post: Less than 20% of Americans attend church once a week. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-...b_4086016.html
Church Leaders: Also says less than 20% attend church. http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors...n-america.html

So if they are going to church, they probably tithe right?

News Observer: About 3% of Americans tithe (Don't blame me that the article talks about Romney). http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/02/...ops-to-an.html
Barna Group: About 5% of Americans tithe. https://www.barna.org/barna-update/c...g#.U7HdprH5e_Q
Christianity Today: About 10%-25% of church goers tithe (so about 2%-5% of the general population). http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...tml?paging=off

So what does this mean?

Regularly attending, tithing members of congregations are absolutely in the minority in America.
Those who attend church but don't tithe are a minority in America.
Those who self-identify as being a "Christian" are not in the minority in America.

Is Egon a regularly attending, tithing member of his congregation and hence feels like a member of a minority or simply expressing his white outrage over the anonymous internet where consequences never matter?

Just to help with your numbers, I do go to church 3 times a week and that isn't counting the 2-3 times a week I'm helping with our youth events. People who go to church and are as involved as I am is an extremely rare. I'm not trying to toot my own horn either, I'm just giving facts. No one here really cares how involved I am as long as I'm not involved around them.

I've always said that a Christians worst enemy is another Christian, and most are Christians when it's convenient. They won't go to church for years but as soon as they get sick or a family member is hurt, they drop to their knees in prayer. Then as soon as everything is better, they won't come back.

[kuronosan]

No one cares how involved you are because you're a zealous asshole about it. There's nothing wrong with getting involved in your community or with your church.

It's when people such as yourself act like you're so oppressed and discriminated against when there is an overabundance of history demonstrating otherwise.

Call me when laws start getting passed that outlaw you from openly practicing Christianity.

[Penthesilea]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...ous-objection/

Hobby lobby 401k invests in companies that provide contraceptives and abortion supplies/drugs/etc.

[Meresgi]

I had read an article once by an ex fundamentalist christian. He basically said what you just said. Even though the vast amount of people identify as christian, only a minority are fundamentalist about it. Implicit in this feeling of being besieged and oppressed is the belief that the only true christian is a fundamentalist one.

Yeah and this bugs the FUCK out of me when people talk about any religion. Most christians/muslims/taoist/whatever are not fucking bad people, or even give 1/2 a shit about who you fuck, how you fuck, what you eat, blah blah. The crazy minority though is so outspoken, especially in this country with Christianity, that everyone gets lumped under the same roof. I've dealt with fundamentalist christians before back in high school and hooooooooooooly shit I wanted to bash them upside the head and hope I loosened up something in there to make them behave correctly.

Oh..and no law requires a women at anytime to work there. Don't like it, go somewhere else.

Where else? I wasn't aware we were swimming in jobs in this country. The mentality of "go elsewhere" is fucking stupid as hell. How about "Lets FIX the problem?".

I've always said that a Christians worst enemy is another Christian, and most are Christians when it's convenient. They won't go to church for years but as soon as they get sick or a family member is hurt, they drop to their knees in prayer. Then as soon as everything is better, they won't come back.

I didn't know that God checked your religion card when you sent a prayer email to him, and if it wasn't up to date tossed the prayer in the garbage. Why the fuck does it matter? Do you really think someone is keeping a running tally of all the hours you spent doing good things, and will compare it to someone who doesn't do as much? Fuck off with that sentiment.

[Astylla]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...ous-objection/

Hobby lobby 401k invests in companies that provide contraceptives and abortion supplies/drugs/etc.

That alone is enough for me to call fucking bullshit on their "religious" reasons and front. I don't have an issue with anyone's religious beliefs - to each their own. But it's absolutely another fucking thing to not only preventing your own workers from getting medical care they need based on some old as fuck dogma about what birth control really is and does. In addition profiting off it just makes their whole argument fucking invalid. I know so many say " well work somewhere else" ; which is easy to say but when you are desperate for work and applying anywhere to get something to keep afloat this should not be the reason you don't work there.

The big thing that many aren't aware of is that birth control is not just to prevent pregnancy. I myself had such menstrual issues and blood loss before I was 16 and was not sexually active until I was 20. I was put on birth control to regulate it and it was medically necessary unless I wanted to bleed out. There sometimes can be alternative treatments however they are much more costly and may not be as effective to control the issues at hand. There are a large number of reasons birth control is medically necessary for thousands and it has nothing to do with the inability to keep their legs closed.

It's just a fucking mess. I don't lump anyone into a group based on their religion but this is why on the average I hate religion because it seems to bring out the worst in people.

[Qalbert]

That alone is enough for me to call fucking bullshit on their "religious" reasons and front. I don't have an issue with anyone's religious beliefs - to each their own. But it's absolutely another fucking thing to not only preventing your own workers from getting medical care they need based on some old as fuck dogma about what birth control really is and does. In addition profiting off it just makes their whole argument fucking invalid. I know so many say " well work somewhere else" ; which is easy to say but when you are desperate for work and applying anywhere to get something to keep afloat this should not be the reason you don't work there.

The big thing that many aren't aware of is that birth control is not just to prevent pregnancy. I myself had such menstrual issues and blood loss before I was 16 and was not sexually active until I was 20. I was put on birth control to regulate it and it was medically necessary unless I wanted to bleed out. There sometimes can be alternative treatments however they are much more costly and may not be as effective to control the issues at hand. There are a large number of reasons birth control is medically necessary for thousands and it has nothing to do with the inability to keep their legs closed.

It's just a fucking mess. I don't lump anyone into a group based on their religion but this is why on the average I hate religion because it seems to bring out the worst in people.

ummm obviously their religion states "follow these rules unless you can ignore them to make more money"

[Meresgi]

ummm obviously their religion states "follow these rules unless you can ignore them to make more money"

That's the religion of Capitalism and Reagan is their god.