Israel vs. Gaza round 99

[Byrthnoth]

Also, Netanyahu is the jewish Putin.

[notorious bum]

When staff in El Wafa hospital asked the RedCross (@ICRC) for evac ambulances they denied them and told them they were on their own. #Gaza

Latest #Gaza toll by health ministry: 246 killed; 1,860 injured

UN: 900,000 Gazans have no water supply due to Israeli damage http://bit.ly/1ruBNyN #Gaza

[ringthree]

the Six-Day War was precipitated by aggressive posturing on all sides but Israel started the shooting with a massive, preemptive air raid on Egyptian air fields + Israel's existence is no longer threatened by the surrounding Arab states. Syria and Iraq have collapsed into civil war, twenty years later Lebanon is still attempting to recover from their own cataclysmic civil war, Jordan sits in the corner praying no extremist winds blow their way, the Saudis could care less about the Jews now that they have a Shia bloc to obsess over, and Egypt has transformed into the closest thing Israel has to a regional friend.

digression aside Israel is playing into Hamas's hands with this invasion. they cannot hope to forcefully crush an asymmetric insurgent organization without a full-blown hearts & minds occupation, which they will not (and probably could not) do, and Hamas appears to be doing everything they can to ensure their own civilians are killed as telegenically as possible in order to engender support for their cause among the observing world. Israel's stated military goal is to disband the tunnel network Hamas uses to maneuver men and material throughout the strip. an invasion over a tunnel network. even if successful give a few dozen Mexicans some shovels and it'd be up and running within a week of Israel's inevitable withdrawal.

Israel should be doing everything conceivably possible to improve the standard of living in the West Bank (which in uncoordinated fits and starts they have been) until indigenous Gazan actors recognize Hamas as the primary impediment to their well-being and turn on them. there is no possible military solution for the Palestinian problem.

I basically completely agree with your last paragraph. I just think that Bibi thinks that he is achieving the same basic goal of driving Hamas from the rest of the Palestinian political parties in the West Bank by doing this. I don't think he is right, but that is what the current administration believes.

[ringthree]

Israel is systemically destroying civilian infrastructure. Hospitals, schools, homes, transformers, sewage and water. There is no rhyme or reasoning, never has been. It's thinly-veiled genocide.

All the reporters in Gaza right now are living in a fucking nightmare. Israel tells journalists to evacuate, like the civilians....but there's no fucking where to go inside a walled prison with missiles and shells coming from every direction.

Their tweets are fucking horrifying.

It's really simple though, if Hamas doesn't fire rockets into Israel this wouldn't happen. Why do people keep trying to make this into a one-sided conflict? There is enough blood for everyone's hands.

Completely ignore everything that causes this conflict, then blame Israel for everything. "Genocide" is not what is thinly-veiled here...

[archibaldcrane]

Because of proportionality. Hamas kills or injures a few Israelis, and Israel kills hundreds and wounds thousands, while keeping up a complete blockaid of trade, economic activity, restricts freedom of movement, limits democracy, and basically keeps Gaza as an apartheid state.

Saying that the feeble rockets Hamas fires are "the problem" is ridiculous in such an asymmetric exhange.

[ringthree]

Because of proportionality. Hamas kills or injures a few Israelis, and Israel kills hundreds and wounds thousands, while keeping up a complete blockaid of trade, economic activity, restricts freedom of movement, limits democracy, and basically keeps Gaza as an apartheid state.

Saying that the feeble rockets Hamas fires are "the problem" is ridiculous in such an asymmetric exhange.

I agree to the question of proportionality, but in the past proportionality has failed. Usually when Israel does this, Hamas will at least sue for a temporary peace. With Hamas in Gaza and Bibi in Israel, I don't know if we can hope for much more. The problem is that the Israeli public feels like they were burned the last time they really tried for peace (starting in the 90's and then multiple time since then), and they elected Bibi multiple times because of that.

The West Bank clearly wants peace, even with Israel's horrible settlement policy. Gaza does not. Honestly, this war isn't even with the Palestinians anymore. It is with Hamas and Gaza. Israel does want peace, but it is a peace on their terms and they are willing to deal with these occasional incursions and limited international outrage (we could have a whole thread about the politics and hypocrisy in that outrage itself) that come with that possibility.

But I do have a problem with proportionality when it comes to Israel's response. What is reasonable? Should Israel just let Hamas rain down rockets and do nothing? Are airstrikes ok? (People were already complaining about those). I would just say that you should always remember that the problem with Gaza isn't just a few rockets. It's murders, it's terrorism, it's constant conflict. It's a fucking stupid endless cycle, in which the civilians in Gaza are the victims of both sides of the conflict.

[Kuya]

The roots of the conflict go far beyond Hama's rocket attacks. If Hamas weren't attacking Israel, the problem would still be Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank and its continued efforts to prevent a one state or two state solution.

[ringthree]

The roots of the conflict go far beyond Hama's rocket attacks. If Hamas weren't attacking Israel, the problem would still be Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank and its continued efforts to prevent a one state or two state solution.

Again, a cyclical argument that goes back to why Israel had to invade the territories in the first place or even the creation of the Israeli state. Hey, if you want to blame Britain for everything, then go ahead, but I don't know if it is a beneficial proposition for this discussion. Also, Israel and the PLO sued for peace and tried to make a solution in the past. You are trying to place blame on one party in a two(+) party conflict and honestly it says a lot about personal feelings and not reality when you do that.

You are right, Bibi sucks to negotiate with and I wish he was gone, but he is there because the last several attempts at peace have failed when both sides honestly tried for it. Again I ask, why is there no conflict in the West Bank when there are settlements there, and always conflict in Gaza? To have peace you have to have parties that want peace.

[kuronosan]

God damn it I really hate your faulted logic sometimes.

[ringthree]

God damn it I really hate your faulted logic sometimes.

I think the word you are looking for is faulty.

[archibaldcrane]

What good is peace in the West Bank when Israel continues to ramp up settlement expansion? Peace ain't doing the West Bank any good, it's just making Israel's land grabbing imperialism easier.

[ringthree]

What good is peace in the West Bank when Israel continues to ramp up settlement expansion? Peace ain't doing the West Bank any good, it's just making Israel's land grabbing imperialism easier.

Yes, I completely agree the settlement campaign in the West Bank has to end.

[Penthesilea]

Isn't the settlement thing just gentrification x1000?

[archibaldcrane]

If San Diego was gentrifying Baja California, yeah.

[Kuya]

Again, a cyclical argument that goes back to why Israel had to invade the territories in the first place or even the creation of the Israeli state. Hey, if you want to blame Britain for everything, then go ahead, but I don't know if it is a beneficial proposition for this discussion. Also, Israel and the PLO sued for peace and tried to make a solution in the past. You are trying to place blame on one party in a two(+) party conflict and honestly it says a lot about personal feelings and not reality when you do that.

You are right, Bibi sucks to negotiate with and I wish he was gone, but he is there because the last several attempts at peace have failed when both sides honestly tried for it. Again I ask, why is there no conflict in the West Bank when there are settlements there, and always conflict in Gaza? To have peace you have to have parties that want peace.

I am placing more responsibility on the occupying force in an asymmetrical conflict. You want to pretend responsibility can be split evenly because it requires less effort on your end. I can agree to pretending that responsibility can be split evenly for the purposes of not antagonizing israel in a negotiating table but the truth is, Israel has more responsibility as a fully functioning democratic state that is currently occupying the land.

We agree that bibi sucks.

Your last question is of course rhetorical. You presuppose that there is less conflict in the west bank because the palestinian organizations there actually want peace despite the settlements. I would drag your attention back to "despite the settlements". From my perspective it certainly doesn't seem like being more peaceful is working out for people in the west bank in terms of the colonial settlements. But I guess we could blame that on bibi for making people in the west bank look like a bunch of punks.

[Gokku]

Idk isn't it a little different after 50 years? Like sure Russia taking Crimea was fucked but 50 years from now on one should care about the how, they own it by then. Needs to be a statue of limitations on bitch and Israel having stolen land from Xyz. Them expanding is one thing, and if that's what spawned the current fight it would be valid.

But for the current conflict, Hamas started with killing 3 teens. Just because Israel is curb stomping them for it isn't Israeli issue, Hamas picked a fight and then ran crying once Israel snapped.

[Correction]

Idk isn't it a little different after 50 years? Like sure Russia taking Crimea was fucked but 50 years from now on one should care about the how, they own it by then. Needs to be a statue of limitations on bitch and Israel having stolen land from Xyz. Them expanding is one thing, and if that's what spawned the current fight it would be valid.

But for the current conflict, Hamas started with killing 3 teens. Just because Israel is curb stomping them for it isn't Israeli issue, Hamas picked a fight and then ran crying once Israel snapped.

This is kind of reductive and immature. Hundreds of thousands of palestinians became refugees without a country to call their own when Israel pushed its borders outwards from the original UN mandate. These hundreds of thousands of refugees have since had children and grandchildren and to them the right of return has no statute of limitations, especially since the illegal settlements have been an ongoing event over the last six decades, not something that happened once 50 years ago and never again. Just because Israel has turned a blind eye to the settlements that have now put down permanent roots does not suddenly invalidate legitimate claims to the land by people who legally owned it before it was invaded. Israel and the international community are simply not allowed to dust off their hands and say 'welp, that's that' until the refugees' claims are satisfied.

[Gokku]

Question, why doesnt Israel just fuckin BUY the land from them? im sure enough money could be thrown at a country for them to agree to it, could they afford it? the notion of peace should boost the economy if it held.... the Palestinians that stayed could either be paid money to leave or stay and become israeli etc.

So lets say , they pay out 6G's to 2.5million people spending 15bil pre land price and pay a trillion for the land, and just ended the war with money.

[Drex]

why don't jews just buy something

is this even a serious question?

[Gokku]

is this even a serious question?

lol gdi touche