Best TP to save to?

[Fwahm]

In a highly buffed situation with capped haste, I'm wondering which comes out to be better: WSing at 1000 TP whenever possible, or waiting to, say, 2000 TP? This is using a weaponskill that has completely linear fTP, so 2000 TP is twice as strong as 1000 TP.

WSing at 1000 TP twice gives you 2 uses of the Moonshade Earring, so it's essentially 2500 TP vs 2250 TP of WSing once. However, WSing twice also incurs the WS delay twice, as well.

Which is better?

[seminoles6868]

I would have to say 1000tp

[Damane]

depends on the setup, sometimes its worthwile to coordinate SCs with your melee partner if you have a hardcore nuke sch or blms that can bust out 10k+ tier V nuke Magic bursts, or double 5-6k T3 nuke magic bursts. not ot mention the added SC dmg.

[Byrthnoth]

It is good to hold TP on insurgency until something like 2750 TP.

For everything else that I have looked at, 1000 is still the way to go. The WS changes still matter for things like mob forms and damage resistance though, because sometimes it will be better to hold TP or wait on a vulnerability or skillchain partner instead of just spamming.

[Martel]

It is good to hold TP on insurgency until something like 2750 TP.

For everything else that I have looked at, 1000 is still the way to go. The WS changes still matter for things like mob forms and damage resistance though, because sometimes it will be better to hold TP or wait on a vulnerability or skillchain partner instead of just spamming.

Man, that's just such a ridiculous advantage for a mythic. Need AM3 renewed? Let's just wait 5 more seconds to ws than normal. <,<;

[Sechs]

For everything else that I have looked at

Does this "everything" include Rudra's Storm and Resolution?

[Byrthnoth]

It includes Rudra's. I didn't bother looking at Resolution.

Under the most favorable possible conditions, I get that you should hold TP to 1010 with Rudra's Storm before using it. At that TP, though, it's better to use Evisceration.

[Wheeldog]

It includes Rudra's. I didn't bother looking at Resolution.

Under the most favorable possible conditions, I get that you should hold TP to 1010 with Rudra's Storm before using it. At that TP, though, it's better to use Evisceration.

I don't know if this was covered in the WS retooling thread but is there roughly a TP range where unstacked Rudras should overtake unstacked Evis for THF? (I know there are a ton of variables but I'm just looking to see if there is a ballpark #)

[Motenten]

I don't know if this was covered in the WS retooling thread but is there roughly a TP range where unstacked Rudras should overtake unstacked Evis for THF? (I know there are a ton of variables but I'm just looking to see if there is a ballpark #)

Vs. a target with low def (roughly capped attack), Rudra's overtakes Evisceration at about 1200 TP. For a target with fairly high def (~1.3 cRatio), it overtakes Evisceration at about 1800 TP.

On the general subject of whether to hold TP, if you're doing so in conjunction with another DD that you can skillchain with, it depends on your haste. Assuming two DDs doing roughly equal damage with their weaponskills (thus it doesn't matter too much who closes), at capped haste you start losing damage (slowly) as you hold TP, since most of the time you hardly need to wait at all for the other DD. At lower haste levels (say ~40% total), whether you hold for skillchains matters -- and in the case I checked, damage goes -up- the longer you're willing to hold, til it reaches a cap at about 500 TP, and then remains flat indefinitely afterwards. In other words, it's -always- worthwhile to hold TP to skillchain (for the given simulation conditions and DDs, which were mnks).

The natural conflict, of course, is that anything that's going to last through more than one skillchain, you'll probably have near capped haste on anyway. On the other hand, while it was a loss waiting for the other DD at high haste conditions, it was a fairly small loss overall. If you added any additional damage such as magic bursts, it would swing back into the net positive range.

I'm refining the simulator a bit to see how things look for other types of DDs, to see if the above holds true in general.

[EjinCaitsith]

For SAM, I've found in practice that's much more favorable to hold TP as long as possible on the closing WS if you're SCing, especially when closing a multiple step SC where the multiplied SC damage has even more of an impact. The way Fudo scales, you're talking about 5K damage at 1000% TP or 9K damage waiting 1-2 attack rounds for 1500-2000 TP, which is obviously mirrored in the SC.

I've also noticed a substantial increase in the time it takes to kill NMs when we've added a 2nd DD and all we did was spam the same WS(VS and Fudo) instead of my usual 5 step light SC. Not sure how practical it would be, and it would relegate some people to using inferior WS, but I suspect that 2 DD doing a level 4-5 SC would be overall better DPS(esp with allies roll) than just freely spamming WS for a chance at a 1 step SC here and there.

[Viar]

For SAM, I've found in practice that's much more favorable to hold TP as long as possible on the closing WS if you're SCing, especially when closing a multiple step SC where the multiplied SC damage has even more of an impact. The way Fudo scales, you're talking about 5K damage at 1000% TP or 9K damage waiting 1-2 attack rounds for 1500-2000 TP, which is obviously mirrored in the SC.

I've also noticed a substantial increase in the time it takes to kill NMs when we've added a 2nd DD and all we did was spam the same WS(VS and Fudo) instead of my usual 5 step light SC. Not sure how practical it would be, and it would relegate some people to using inferior WS, but I suspect that 2 DD doing a level 4-5 SC would be overall better DPS(esp with allies roll) than just freely spamming WS for a chance at a 1 step SC here and there.

Unless you're going in with less than 6 or using 4 mages, you have 3~4 slot for melee in a delve party instead of 2. Wouldn't 3 DD spam the same WS do more damage than 1 or 2 DD do 5 step light SC?

[Byrthnoth]

Maybe or maybe not. Skillchaining goes like this:
* Opening WS
* 3 second delay where further WSs will not skillchain (it's at least 3 seconds, based on my log with my trust NPC)
* Skillchain window opens
* 7 seconds delay where further WSs will skillchain (I'm pretty sure it ends 10 seconds after the opening WS, but maybe it's 15)
* Skillchain window closes

I know that at capped delay on my DNC, my base TP time is about 7.5 seconds. Infinite skillchains for me, but you throw another melee in there and we have to coordinate pretty heavily and sit on TP a little to keep skillchaining. You throw a third melee in there and you're either sitting on TP a lot or abandoning skillchaining altogether because of that 3 second delay. Looking over my logs, I have seen skillchains happen 4-9 seconds after the opening WS, and fail to happen 3 or 12 seconds after the opening WS.


I find that when I'm doing something like Tenzen on DNC, watching tparty and holding TP when appropriate for skillchains helps my total damage and pulls me even with the other DDs even though everyone else is spamming everything. It's all a matter of timing, though, and I pretty much use reverse flourish so that I can get TP at the right time (a gap between WS spam) to skillchain. If I was on my Ukon WAR, for instance, I do not think it would help me because GA WSs don't scale very well with TP.


Here is an example from a week or two ago:

[09:41:25](Byrth) Dmg: LibDRK 90297(35.3%), ByrthDNC 74941(29.3%), MandauTHF 58412(22.8%), Skillchain(Byr.) 20456(8.0%)
[09:41:26](ByrthDNC) Skillchain(LibDRK) 6251(2.4%), Skillchain(MandauTHF) 5717(2.2%), WHM 72(0.0%), BRD 0(0.0%)

Total:
LibDRK    - 96548 (37.54%)
ByrthDNC  - 96397 (37.48%)
MandauTHF - 64129 (24.94%)
WHM       - 72 (0.03%)

Tenzen's HP - 257k

I think the Liberator DRK was spamming Insurgency instead of sitting on it as he probably should have, so I do not really think I would have been as close if he had played differently, but skillchains were a substantial portion of my DPS.

[Damane]

Unless you're going in with less than 6 or using 4 mages, you have 3~4 slot for melee in a delve party instead of 2. Wouldn't 3 DD spam the same WS do more damage than 1 or 2 DD do 5 step light SC?

I'd wagger to say a 2 DD GEO BRD WHM SCHorRDM setup would be the best where magic dmg isnt halved. This is assuming the SCHorRDM and GEO are sporting appropriate awesome Magic Burst/nuke sets of 35%+ magic burst dmg and both DDs do constant SCs for magic bursts. mind you properly geared the nuke1 MBs should be around 2.5-4k MB, nuke2 3-5k MB, nuketier3 4-6k, tier4nukes 5-7k and tier5nukes6-9k MBs, depending on mobs ad another 20% if the SCH is useing dmg+ stratagems and if some form of buffs are applies from the GEO (if melees only need 1 geo buff), correctly timed you can even MB 2x tier 3 nukes on one SC, even from the same element if you have 2 marches on.
Advantages:
-massiv support from SCH GEO WHM BRD or RDM
-a bit less TP spam (albeit i doubt it would be much noticable)
-massiv debuff support.
with multiple step SCs the MB damage will go up too obviously

unfortunatly the number of good nukers with appropriate gear on each server is lower then the amount of D.rings hovering around. Obviously shits situational, if you are facing constant amesia-bitching a more melee oriented setup would do more with high white magic.

[Darkmagi]

For SAM, I've found in practice that's much more favorable to hold TP as long as possible on the closing WS if you're SCing, especially when closing a multiple step SC where the multiplied SC damage has even more of an impact. The way Fudo scales, you're talking about 5K damage at 1000% TP or 9K damage waiting 1-2 attack rounds for 1500-2000 TP, which is obviously mirrored in the SC.

I've also noticed a substantial increase in the time it takes to kill NMs when we've added a 2nd DD and all we did was spam the same WS(VS and Fudo) instead of my usual 5 step light SC. Not sure how practical it would be, and it would relegate some people to using inferior WS, but I suspect that 2 DD doing a level 4-5 SC would be overall better DPS(esp with allies roll) than just freely spamming WS for a chance at a 1 step SC here and there.

Off topic, but what is the 5step SC you use?

[EjinCaitsith]

Kasha>Rana>Shoha>Kasha>Fudo

[Bran Llywd]

It is good to hold TP on insurgency until something like 2750 TP.

For everything else that I have looked at, 1000 is still the way to go. The WS changes still matter for things like mob forms and damage resistance though, because sometimes it will be better to hold TP or wait on a vulnerability or skillchain partner instead of just spamming.

Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this gain in the dps sheets, am I missing something? Seemed to come out at a loss, though a small loss, at anything above 1k