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  1. #141
    New Odin
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    The reason job roles are so strict is to maintain relative desirability for all the jobs. Start moving into 'hybrids' and balancing issues arise and psychopathic elitists like residents here demanding you drop job X because it sucks on the spreadsheets.

    This is supposed to be a casual game and that my friends is the road to ending this casual game and turning it into an FFXI shitfest. WHY ARENT YOU PLAYING JOB Y, ITS IDEAL.

  2. #142
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    Don't fuck with my emotions man.
    Your emotions are mine as well. I'd kill for dat long range action. FIRE THE ETHER SHELLS!

    Edit: I also agree with the above, simply because I understand that the game is about making money and eliciting "feels" more than it is about making some pristine and pure expressions of combat. The game will gradually shift towards the kinds of combat people want as the game gets older, and eventually, old. Whether anyone complaining today will still be paying to play by then is anyone's guess, but the system they have in place is easy to get into and easy to hook new players and thus, bring in money.

  3. #143
    Black Belt
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    Oh god, Cannoneer as a healer/buffer job. I'd kill for that.

  4. #144
    Old Odin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niiro View Post
    I wouldn't hold my breath expecting any kind of meaningful flexibility in XIV anytime soon.
    which is imho sad to be honest. I know FFXI isnt balanced because the core mechanics are borked/wonky (enmity, Ja Delay, Magic Delay), but it has and HAD much bigger amount of freedome when it came to setups of partys/alliances and Subjob choices.

    The crossability-class system in FFXIV is just blerg, its so strict they might have as well thrown it out the window. Same applies to PT and Ally setups. There is so much unused potential in the crossability-class system -_-

  5. #145
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronin sparthos View Post
    The reason job roles are so strict is to maintain relative desirability for all the jobs. Start moving into 'hybrids' and balancing issues arise and psychopathic elitists like residents here demanding you drop job X because it sucks on the spreadsheets.

    This is supposed to be a casual game and that my friends is the road to ending this casual game and turning it into an FFXI shitfest. WHY ARENT YOU PLAYING JOB Y, ITS IDEAL.
    If jobs/classes can only be different to the extent that they can remain exactly equal, there doesn't seem to be much point to introducing new jobs. If the only kind of tank they can make is damage reduction-style because an evasion tank would be too good, I don't know how much I would look forward to warrior-in-samurai-outfit. Likewise for monk-in-ninja-outfit and bard-in-pirate-outfit.

    At least with the "spotlight" method of balance, there was some actual difference between the jobs/classes.

  6. #146
    PUP Power!
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    I would just like to see some reason for classes other than being incredibly niche. I can think of an example actually. Arcanist can be given passive traits that greatly boost your DOT spells (like 1.5x stronger). Carby would then have an actual use but his attack and skills would be weaker than any of the egi. Summoners would then have less powerful DOTs then (well, the same they have now) but stronger pets with unique abilities. This way you can balance your role in a battle based in the situation: do we need a stronger DOTs on this buff or would the added damage from egis be more useful?

  7. #147
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    In a different, smarter version of this game, THM and ACN should already be specable as true hybrid healers. Classes should be able to equip any non-AF/relic gear in the game (separated only by DoW/DoM); at that point, you just allow THM/ACN to equip Cleric Stance (as they are supposed to be able to based on the rules of the game) and they could equip full healer gear to cast a passable Physick and decent nukes. It would be at the level of Duty Roulette healer, or maybe overgeared primal extremes.

  8. #148
    Ridill
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    Because you're gonna do so well with only Physick on Extremes.

  9. #149
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    ACN is called as a DPS, which would make SMN the primary job of the class. Leaving SCH as the hybrid, which if does just fine as a DPS/Healing hybrid.

  10. #150
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkar View Post
    Because you're gonna do so well with only Physick on Extremes.
    If people are already doing single-heal easily, it's worth trying; at a very minimum, you could transition from two healers to healer+hybrid to two hybrids. The worst that can happen is that it doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shenrien View Post
    ACN is called as a DPS, which would make SMN the primary job of the class. Leaving SCH as the hybrid, which if does just fine as a DPS/Healing hybrid.
    SCH is no more a DPS/Healing "hybrid" than WHM is. It's a straight healer, as much as such a thing exists in this game.

  11. #151

    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    which is imho sad to be honest. I know FFXI isnt balanced because the core mechanics are borked/wonky (enmity, Ja Delay, Magic Delay), but it has and HAD much bigger amount of freedome when it came to setups of partys/alliances and Subjob choices.

    The crossability-class system in FFXIV is just blerg, its so strict they might have as well thrown it out the window. Same applies to PT and Ally setups. There is so much unused potential in the crossability-class system -_-
    I kinna liked how in XI you could have jobs like PUP or BST that were not something that parties wanted but yet people played them and did their own thing

  12. #152

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    If people are already doing single-heal easily, it's worth trying; at a very minimum, you could transition from two healers to healer+hybrid to two hybrids. The worst that can happen is that it doesn't work.


    SCH is no more a DPS/Healing "hybrid" than WHM is. It's a straight healer, as much as such a thing exists in this game.
    SCH DPS has much more utility than WHM in general that you can easily class it as a hybrid. When you can spend an entire event just doing DPS it's hard to be anything but a hybrid (considering whether you like it or not, you'll be healing as well). If you want to focus more on healing and less on DPS, you can also.

  13. #153
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    Well, you can look at the DPS output of WHM on Garuda plumes (or going further back, WP speedruns) and say that WHM is also a "hybrid" in those scenarios. The point is that THM/ACN would be "more hybridized," in that their damage output would be better than SCH/WHM and their healing would be worse (but better than their current healing, which is simply useless in nearly all scenarios).

  14. #154
    A. Body
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
    I kinna liked how in XI you could have jobs like PUP or BST that were not something that parties wanted but yet people played them and did their own thing
    Solo jobs had hardcore followings as well. They don't fit well into the current system but would be a smart addition in the future.

  15. #155
    Old Odin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
    I kinna liked how in XI you could have jobs like PUP or BST that were not something that parties wanted but yet people played them and did their own thing
    it doesnt even matter if PTs wanted them, every job in FFXI has its niche/speciality kinda. But thats not even the point. The Flexibility in this game is 0 and allows for basicly no creativ setups, because PT/ally sizes/structures are given/set in stone and because the crossclass-ability system is so limited. I am kinda sad that yoshi-p went out of his way to revamp the crossclass-ability system.

    I know it is impossible to balance things up the more flexible they are, but fuck balance. As long as fights/jobs dont require things like 2hour/SP/REM then or you dont give them gear/weapons that are that ridiculous, the balance cant get that fucked as in FFXI.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dan View Post
    Well, you can look at the DPS output of WHM on Garuda plumes (or going further back, WP speedruns) and say that WHM is also a "hybrid" in those scenarios. The point is that THM/ACN would be "more hybridized," in that their damage output would be better than SCH/WHM and their healing would be worse (but better than their current healing, which is simply useless in nearly all scenarios).
    So you want to take THM - which is already fairly strong at raids with BLM, and make it stronger than the actual job? I'm confused at the point you're trying to make here when you bring up THM, maybe you mean CNJ because you keep bringing up WHM? idk.

  17. #157

    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    it doesnt even matter if PTs wanted them, every job in FFXI has its niche/speciality kinda. But thats not even the point. The Flexibility in this game is 0 and allows for basicly no creativ setups, because PT/ally sizes/structures are given/set in stone and because the crossclass-ability system is so limited. I am kinda sad that yoshi-p went out of his way to revamp the crossclass-ability system.

    I know it is impossible to balance things up the more flexible they are, but fuck balance. As long as fights/jobs dont require things like 2hour/SP/REM then or you dont give them gear/weapons that are that ridiculous, the balance cant get that fucked as in FFXI.
    lol I enjoyed the ridiculous weapons and items in XI. Apoc would completely revamp DRK and I thought it was like the coolest thing. I miss special stats and abilities like that made the game more interesting for me.

  18. #158
    Strider/Doom/Cyclops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkar View Post
    Because you're gonna do so well with only Physick on Extremes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shenrien View Post
    So you want to take THM - which is already fairly strong at raids with BLM, and make it stronger than the actual job?
    Why does any discussion about hybrids invariably result in said hybrid either being classified as useless or overpowered? As if there is no possible middle-ground.

    No, THM would not be "stronger than BLM" at BLM's role: dealing damage. The only reason I mentioned WHM is because you were claiming SCH (a healer) is actually a hybrid; using that logic, one could easily say there are no "healers" in the game, only "hybrids."

  19. #159
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cichy View Post
    I kinna liked how in XI you could have jobs like PUP or BST that were not something that parties wanted but yet people played them and did their own thing
    The problem is when a Pup or Bst wants to party, and then cannot, because no one wants them because of a combination of job perception bias and the realistic limitations of the job.

    And yes, that is a problem. Being able to solo is fine and all, but MMOs are party-centric affairs. You can't change perception without changing the actual job. SE found that out with Wars in ARR prior to the necessary re-balancing of their abilities. Go figure people like Wars now: they're actually useful.

    I suppose SE could have slapped a tiger pet onto the old war kit and renamed it bst and wars would have trained themselves to "appreciate" the "appeal" of a solo class simply because no one would party with them, but it would have been much better to simply balance and enhance the job to the point where its actually useful? I mean, shit, anyone can solo in ARR, so having a dedicated "soloing" class loses a lot of punch in the grand scheme of things.

    Edit: ARR is about making money, not really about "flexibility" within class design. The system works enough to bring in subs and cash: define jobs, throw them against big bosses and have the bosses drop loot. For all of its "flexibility", which was really just having such shitty coding as to be unable to stop players from deviating from the script in a way that wouldn't involve rewriting said code (see: Nin, War/nin, everything/nin) which game has more subs? Which brings in more cash? Would adopting a XI style of letting whatever just do whatever bring in more cash? Did Wildstar hearkening back to the "good ol' days" bring in more cash, simply because the vocal minority of then-college students with tons of free time bleated about it on forums loudly enough? How -is- Wildstar doing right now, anyway?

    I'm not saying that its an impossibility, but its impractical enough for it not to be a design philosophy or even a design consideration for SE at this point. They have something that works right now. They're removing what doesn't work (dual-job system) and attempting to refine what does work for 3.0. If the metrics were there that suddenly allowing for complete loose and fast rules for job role diversification would suddenly triple subs, you'd probably see it even if it did require significant re-balancing of the code. I don't think anyone's going to be able to convince SE of that, though.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    I know it is impossible to balance things up the more flexible they are, but fuck balance.
    Word. If everything is perfectly balanced, then there's hardly a difference between anyone. Everyone is homogenized and nobody is better or worse, so there isn't even a need for creativity or innovation. Does everything really have to be balanced in order to encourage casual-friendly, entry level play?

    I swear half the fun in XI was being the wrong race for the wrong job, and still feeling like you were contributing/breaking the mold/I'll-show-them-DRGs-aren't-all-bad/etc., even if you had to wait all day for a group. That game had a ton of different options though, something I never gave it credit for until recently when everything else is lacking it.

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