FFXIV 3.0 : Heavensward - Expansion Information and Discussion

**Spider-Dan** · 2014-10-20 23:06

You guys aren't getting it! SE will only do what "makes money," which is nebulously defined as whatever I happen to approve of.

Copying WoW definitely doesn't make money (given the long history of failed WoW clones), but SE certainly decided to do that.
In the 2010s, subscription-based MMOs overwhelmingly lose money, but we're still sending our money in every month.
Is there some other money-making MMO that allows you to play every class on one character? Hmmm, must be another exception.

"SE will only do what makes money" is a very lazy way of saying "I really didn't like FFXI" (which, it bears mentioning, is the most profitable game in SE's history).

Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

Spin me a tale about finding the middle ground and I'll point you to every MMO where the elitists take hold and declare fun is dead by saying job X spreadsheets better than Y QED stop playing Y because you suck and my penis throbs with the pulse of a thousand suns playing job X in raids.

I take this to mean that successful MMOs never have people complaining about balance, or something?

This game is all about lowest-common-denominator and idiot-proofing. You basically can't wear the "wrong" gear because itemization is mindless and stupid; all you have to do is read the number next to your picture and if it goes up when you equip an item, you should use that item. Jobs can't use the "wrong" cross-class skills because the rails are so narrow that you are almost always "choosing" between actions that do something and actions that do nothing. There are very few situations where you are rewarded for making a smart choice... mostly just situations where you will be punished for making incredibly dumb ones.

modern MMO yo

**Francisco** · 2014-10-20 23:15

Originally Posted by Shenrien

You're probably in that minority, I've had zero issue texting, reddit browsing and other shit while tanking, and to lesser experience healing. If I were playing monk, what's to stop me from just giving up an extra 10-20% damage by not moving to rear or flank to get to the next stack of greased lightning.

Kill yourself.

I wanted to after the "good by" ... I'll just chalk that one up to a bad auto-correct.

Also, don't really see how you can multitask / window swap / not look at screen on fights like Titan, ADS, any other serious boss without being a liability.

**Jamison** · 2014-10-20 23:20

Was it 1.23 that had the revised interim battle system? That was my favorite by far.

**Cichy** · 2014-10-20 23:24

Originally Posted by Jamison

Was it 1.23 that had the revised interim battle system? That was my favorite by far.

yeah that was my favorite battle system, I din't want XI battle system I wanted that 1.23 with maybe little faster auto attacks to speed up TP gain

**Deuce** · 2014-10-20 23:24

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

This game is all about lowest-common-denominator and idiot-proofing. You basically can't wear the "wrong" gear because itemization is mindless and stupid; all you have to do is read the number next to your picture and if it goes up when you equip an item, you should use that item. Jobs can't use the "wrong" cross-class skills because the rails are so narrow that you are almost always "choosing" between actions that do something and actions that do nothing. There are very few situations where you are rewarded for making a smart choice... mostly just situations where you will be punished for making incredibly dumb ones.

The illusion of choice is my biggest complaint about FFXIV. You even run into it with regard to the class/job system. Sure I can switch classes at any time outside of battle; however, there's little point to it. Why should I continue playing other classes if I'm restricted to gearing out one class each week in CT/ST, Coil, and with tomestones? I can roll on gear for other classes if my group agreed to it, but then I'll just slow down progression by undergearing myself/others. Plus, the primals recently have been fairly disappointing when it comes towards their itemization. There's little point in grinding to get every weapon when I can only really benefit from them in more primal grinding.

Changes to the loot lockouts is something that I'm really looking for because having the same lockout system from MMOs that restrict to one class doesn't make sense. If I can play every class in the game on one character then give me a reason to want to do that.

**arus2001** · 2014-10-21 00:07

Originally Posted by Deuce

The illusion of choice is my biggest complaint about FFXIV. You even run into it with regard to the class/job system. Sure I can switch classes at any time outside of battle; however, there's little point to it. Why should I continue playing other classes if I'm restricted to gearing out one class each week in CT/ST, Coil, and with tomestones? I can roll on gear for other classes if my group agreed to it, but then I'll just slow down progression by undergearing myself/others. Plus, the primals recently have been fairly disappointing when it comes towards their itemization. There's little point in grinding to get every weapon when I can only really benefit from them in more primal grinding.

Changes to the loot lockouts is something that I'm really looking for because having the same lockout system from MMOs that restrict to one class doesn't make sense. If I can play every class in the game on one character then give me a reason to want to do that.

This is mainly the big reason why I'm not subbed. The hell is the point of the job system when endgame progression is better handled via playing alts to mitigate caps/lockouts? I'll never really understand the doomsayers who'd claim everyone would have everything in a week were such not the case.

**Elcura** · 2014-10-21 06:16

Originally Posted by Francisco

Even if I enjoyed the XI combat system more, I don't expect it to ever show up in XIV.

I would much rather like it if they could come up with a way to streamline combat a bit so I don't need to have both hands on the keyboard and mouse 100% of the time during a battle.

Viable options might be:

Playing another game. Seriously. There are a lot of strategy/sim/turnbased games that require 50% attention and 50% input, allowing you to do things other than play the game. Like playing a better game.

**Voyage1970** · 2014-10-21 08:26

I do think the system in 1.23 was a nice balance between XIV's faster pace and XI's slow but methodical pace, honestly I'd be content with our current battle system if there was just a better party dynamic to it. Skillchains and Magic Bursts would add a fun element to coordinating with your party in the midst of the chaos and would reward people for working together. As it stands now most fights boil down to DPS checks and dodging so the only real interaction you have with each other is to herp derp damage and not die. You aren't really paying attention to the other people in your party and what their doing unless they are fucking up.

In my dream scenario every individual person would have their own Limit Bar and chaining mini limit breaks together would create the skillchains. Melee LBs would form Skillchains and you could burst magic LBs with it. It's essentially the TP system from 1.23 and XI but you still keep the fast paced stamina system we have in XIV right now. I also remember when XIV was first coming out they had that part-breaking system for monsters. I thought that could have been a pretty cool idea for allowing you to contribute to your other party members by working towards exploiting a weakness to help others instead of yourself. Like say Ifrit takes 30% less magic damage with his horns on and neutral melee damage. Once you break his horns he takes 130% or some such magic damage. So magic damage becomes the best after the melee work towards revealing the weakness but until then magic has a debuff.

Just random thoughts and considering the way they go about balancing current fights with the DPS meters I don't think it'd be too much of a hassle to balance with the added dynamics.

**Arthars** · 2014-10-21 09:07

the recast of special WS and also the animation lock makes 1.23 a very skill based battle system in terms of using your WS at the right time....

however the lag makes that animation lock 2-9000 times worse than it seem to be..........

example: that 1 wrong timed WS from your tank in cutter's cry on chimera can have a massive snowball effect and end a speed run within seconds

mmo these days are made for cashing in monies... FFXIV have hardcore essence in form of coil but they die out fast as weeks goes to become a faceroll

i think they did a pretty good job to satisfy the minority of us wanting a challenge and making the rest happy to participate eventually

**Obsidian** · 2014-10-21 09:21

Originally Posted by Adajer

While I dont really want them to bring back FFXI's battle system, I really hate the battle system in FFXIV myself.

They really should do a mashup.

I would like a system that gave jobs abilities that are usable as much as you want. Some with a 5 sec recast, others with 7, 10, 15, 30 etc. Then let us build TP with our melee and said abilities and use them on actual weapon skills that do more dmg. Make jump a weapon skill that requires 200 tp w/o a recast timer.

Something like that, just ab it different. I hate having to juggle dmg buffs like you said, or rotations. Give me more freedom in how I fight.

The whole using a specific weapon type determines your class is pretty stupid too. I think that will be something they get rid of in 3.0

Edit: I would like to see skillchains and magic bursts though, but definitely not ffxi TP waiting combat.

Sounds like you want the 1.0 battle system.

Weapon type determining class/job is definitely not going to go away; it's the linchpin of the entire Armory system.

**Arthars** · 2014-10-21 09:37

with lockouts from CT and coil gear, trying to cap 2 or more jobs is pointless

which in turns, also makes the armory system somewhat useless cos i bet people with 9 capped jobs in 2.0 now prolly only have 1/2 of those jobs cap now + relics

distance between your jobs gotta drag more come 2.5 i think and then eventually everyone will play 1-2 jobs max come 3.0 XD

**Obsidian** · 2014-10-21 09:42

I have MNK and PLD both at i110 so I can't say I can relate to the feeling of futility you seem to be describing, and I barely even play.

**Alkar** · 2014-10-21 09:43

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

"SE will only do what makes money" is a very lazy way of saying "I really didn't like FFXI" (which, it bears mentioning, is the most profitable game in SE's history).

So far. Or should I remind you that ARR managed to break FFXI's sub record in its first month? And I believe FFXI's peak was during ToAU so three expansions in... You can't deny that ARR is a lor more successful than FFXI ever was, the proof is out there.
For every hardcore quitting because he/she is done with Coil there's a bunch of casuals coming in to play.

**Arthars** · 2014-10-21 09:51

Originally Posted by Obsidian

I have MNK and PLD both at i110 so I can't say I can relate to the feeling of futility you seem to be describing, and I barely even play.

you just described what i said exactly

even if i give you time to play before, you will prolly max out 1 or at most 2 more 110 due to rng, and soldiery cap

i have 3 jobs at 110 and 1 at 108 and i got to say im pretty lucky on free lots already

**Kaslo** · 2014-10-21 10:16

Originally Posted by Obsidian

I have MNK and PLD both at i110 so I can't say I can relate to the feeling of futility you seem to be describing, and I barely even play.

Yeah I've been i110 on 4 jobs for about a month now (note: this is 2 casters and 2 tanks so not really fair)

**Kaslo** · 2014-10-21 10:17

Originally Posted by Alkar

So far. Or should I remind you that ARR managed to break FFXI's sub record in its first month? And I believe FFXI's peak was during ToAU so three expansions in... You can't deny that ARR is a lor more successful than FFXI ever was, the proof is out there.
For every hardcore quitting because he/she is done with Coil there's a bunch of casuals coming in to play.

However, because of the way gear progression works in ARR I see more people take months off than I did in FFXI.

**ronin sparthos** · 2014-10-21 10:23

Originally Posted by Alkar

So far. Or should I remind you that ARR managed to break FFXI's sub record in its first month? And I believe FFXI's peak was during ToAU so three expansions in... You can't deny that ARR is a lor more successful than FFXI ever was, the proof is out there.
For every hardcore quitting because he/she is done with Coil there's a bunch of casuals coming in to play.

I'd be very leery of looking at frontloaded subs and declaring that ARR is the more successful game in terms of profit considering the very volatile / short life cycle of MMOs these days.

People pick up an MMO, play it a few months then never return again. The kind of player retention (10 years???) that a game like XI has had is unlikely to happen again with XIV despite the improvements and arguably superior approach to customer service.

**Spider-Dan** · 2014-10-21 10:33

Originally Posted by Alkar

So far. Or should I remind you that ARR managed to break FFXI's sub record in its first month?

Are you using ARR as market justification for the design choices in ARR? That's a bit circular.

And I believe FFXI's peak was during ToAU so three expansions in... You can't deny that ARR is a lor more successful than FFXI ever was, the proof is out there.

You're comparing a game that has been out for a year to a game that was SE's bread-and-butter for a decade? Might want to pump the brakes, there. SWTOR is not the most successful MMO of all time.

**Selamis** · 2014-10-21 10:35

Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

I'd be very leery of looking at frontloaded subs and declaring that ARR is the more successful game in terms of profit considering the very volatile / short life cycle of MMOs these days.

People pick up an MMO, play it a few months then never return again. The kind of player retention (10 years???) that a game like XI has had is unlikely to happen again with XIV despite the improvements and arguably superior approach to customer service.

I'd agree with this, all my old friends from XI came to play XIV at the release, and we played until about the time when we had coil 4 on farm, and had gotten close to beating 5 before the slight nerf and echo buff. After maybe 4 or 5 months, they all stopped playing, and our FC and LS took a large hit in activity. I myself, took two months off and just came back last night to get used to the game again. I expect some people will come back for 2.4, play that new content and then stop playing again until 3.0.

**Alkar** · 2014-10-21 10:36

Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

I'd be very leery of looking at frontloaded subs and declaring that ARR is the more successful game in terms of profit considering the very volatile / short life cycle of MMOs these days.

People pick up an MMO, play it a few months then never return again. The kind of player retention (10 years???) that a game like XI has had is unlikely to happen again with XIV despite the improvements and arguably superior approach to customer service.

Not really. I've seen a lot of people leave FFXI over the years. The game kinda forces you to play but when your group starts falling apart you'll likely stop playing unless you want to start all over again. I've seen a lot of old faces in XI during the free campaign but I'm pretty sure most are gone again now (just like myself). The game is way past its prime, it's probably time to let it go.
XIV works in cycles. When a patch hits you see a lot of people around checking out the new stuff and it eventually slows down until a new patch hits. The team also seems ok with this.

Thread: FFXIV 3.0 : Heavensward - Expansion Information and Discussion

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