Sexist portrayals of women? What about men?

[RKenshin]

It also means that, in all fairness, they're guilty of the exact same thing via fashion, modeling, pageants, etc, in their own version of 'female beauty fantasy.'

[Penthesilea]

It also means that, in all fairness, they're guilty of the exact same thing via fashion, modeling, pageants, etc, in their own version of 'female beauty fantasy.'

There are a lot of women that do decry the fashion industry, but claiming it's the men who pull the strings

[Qalbert]

studly beefcake dude: 'sex appeal' for ladies, 'power fantasy' for men
slutty chainmail bikini and boob physics: 'sex appeal' for men, nothing for women (because let's be honest even if 'beauty fantasy' was a thing, most oversexed female characters aren't 'beautiful' they just have big tits and a lot of bare skin)

like at least with the beefcake its stupid but both sides theoretically get something out if it?

[RKenshin]

There are a lot of women that do decry the fashion industry, but claiming it's the men who pull the strings

Well, considering those industries are almost entirely supported by the target female audience... they're probably pointing their fingers in the wrong direction?

[RKenshin]

studly beefcake dude: 'sex appeal' for ladies, 'power fantasy' for men
slutty chainmail bikini and boob physics: 'sex appeal' for men, nothing for women (because let's be honest even if 'beauty fantasy' was a thing, most oversexed female characters aren't 'beautiful' they just have big tits and a lot of bare skin)

Ehh I'd debate the 'nothing for women' and 'aren't beautiful' parts... maybe they're not beautiful in the same way that the 'studly beefcake dude' might not be called 'handsome', but they're definitely still appealing. Attractive/sexy/lusted for might be the better descriptor.

That's a big part of the attraction in cosplaying these characters, is it not? Which, even in that, women tend to gravitate towards playing these super sexualized women.

On a similar note, one would probably argue that the 'sexy police officer/student/repair man/delivery girl' isn't towards a goal of being beautiful either, but is still something woman find appealing.

[Penthesilea]

studly beefcake dude: 'sex appeal' for ladies, 'power fantasy' for men
slutty chainmail bikini and boob physics: 'sex appeal' for men, nothing for women (because let's be honest even if 'beauty fantasy' was a thing, most oversexed female characters aren't 'beautiful' they just have big tits and a lot of bare skin)

like at least with the beefcake its stupid but both sides theoretically get something out if it?

Do women not care for shooting arrows and casting spells and wrecking havoc? What kind of thing would have to be in place to make it balanced?

[Qalbert]

I think for a lot of them the issue is that yes, shooting bows etc is cool, but they want the character doing it to be more than just a pair of tits.
this is obviously hyperbole of course but a lot of female characters boil down to little more than this:



which isn't what a lot of women want to play as. you can have practical outfits that are still sleek and sexy (see Hilde from Soul Calibur as a rare example in that series), and realistic proportions without tits flopping about like overfilled water balloons. some of it to is the context/tone of the game, if it's designed to be an over the top, irreverent, immature game then it's a lot easier to let slide, like how there's a whole faction of men and women in gimp suits/bdsm gear in saint's row.

[Qalbert]

also both for male and female characters, the over-sexualized or over-beefcaked characters are usually symptomatic of bad design/writing, as the characters themselves rarely have any great depth to them, so if for no other reason than better games/storytelling I think moving away from those kinds of characters can be a positive thing.

[Ksandra]

studly beefcake dude: 'sex appeal' for ladies, 'power fantasy' for men
slutty chainmail bikini and boob physics: 'sex appeal' for men, nothing for women (because let's be honest even if 'beauty fantasy' was a thing, most oversexed female characters aren't 'beautiful' they just have big tits and a lot of bare skin)

like at least with the beefcake its stupid but both sides theoretically get something out if it?

I agree to an extent, but I think if the woman is still beautiful, many women still gravitate towards them.

How many females gravitated towards female rogs vs. female miqotes in ffxiv? I am sure both, but let's be real that the odds are the miquote wins for percentages.

[Qalbert]

also, to clarify, while I'm sure there are plenty of people who think those characters have no place in gaming, yadda yadda yadda, I think that's not true, just like there are terrible campy B-movies, there can be the gaming analog, but I think that like B-movies it should be just one area or aspect of gaming, not the majority of games that come out, and it does seem like progress is being made in that direction

[Salodin]

Why are demographics constantly ignored again?

To use your example, most fighting games guilty of what you say are primarily catered to what sex again? Oh yeah, young horny males. What to young horny males like? Big TnA. Why do we blame men for hormones and the science of sex? We're not promoting violence or discrimination of women when we play these games, yet this is still wrong because...?

I'm pissed there aren't more game characters with a beer belly and man boobs ala Rufus (sf4), that's more representative of men then a chisled specimen that's not compensating for something by carrying a sword larger and heavier then he is. It's a ridiculous double standard where women put their fingers in their ears and shout "lalalala" whenever you point out the ridiculous standards set by media for how a sexy man should look.

[Penthesilea]

Great depth/story telling for a fighting game? Really? And complaining about looks/armour in said games is even sillier. You mean that woman is wearing no armour at all and surviving all those blows? What about the dude who's swinging around what could possibly be an axe that weighs more than a ton? Suspend some of your disbelief and if you cant do that, find a different game?

[Qalbert]

well selling oversexed characters to horny young men is a whole other problem that I don't really feel like getting into right now, but saying "oh well it's what sells to their target demographic" doesn't mean it isn't still problematic in some ways, or worth discussing. and, in the case of fighting games especially, more diversity and balance of extremes goes a long way. if you have lots of options covering many different bases than you can at least say "I get you don't like this character, but there are plenty of alternatives"

[Qalbert]

maybe read my actual post instead of assuming you know what I'm saying from one part of it? I already said that different genres and styles of games can get away with more or less. most people don't expect great character depth or story from fighting games, which is totally fine, but again, HAVING MORE OPTIONS that cater to different preferences won't hurt. that's all I'm saying. not "you can't have your big boobed bimbos" but "have some other female fighters too who aren't just demos for your jiggle tech" I know that there are people who DO see it as an extreme and that such characters shouldn't exist at all and so on, but like I have said multiple times, I disagree, and think that genre and context are important, and at the end of the day having options that cater to a wide array of tastes and preferences is better. that's all.

[Penthesilea]

well selling oversexed characters to horny young men is a whole other problem that I don't really feel like getting into right now, but saying "oh well it's what sells to their target demographic" doesn't mean it isn't still problematic in some ways, or worth discussing. and, in the case of fighting games especially, more diversity and balance of extremes goes a long way. if you have lots of options covering many different bases than you can at least say "I get you don't like this character, but there are plenty of alternatives"

But why does it come off as a problem? I played fighting games and I've never fought anyone. Those games had absurd character designs and I don't expect the women in my life to represent them what so ever because that's absurd.

[Ksandra]

I could maybe see the logic in regards to things like fighting games because you get to choose the character, so I definitely see the argument for wanting more variety in that case.

The argument becomes harder for games where there is one main character (or with side characters that have specific roles ie. rpgs).

[Qalbert]

in rpgs with a character creator variety is obviously a key ingredient. in games with a fixed narrative/character typically over-sexed or over-studly characters are just boring generic stereotypes at best, so moving away from that is not an inherently bad thing. although as always there are exceptions. like Quiet in MGSV for example has gotten a ton of criticism, but atm we don't know much (anything?) about that character/backstory/context and it's quite possible there is a narrative/character driven reason that she's running around in a bikini top and ripped leggings.

[ronin sparthos]

Do women not care for shooting arrows and casting spells and wrecking havoc? What kind of thing would have to be in place to make it balanced?

The point is of course that while men have their beefcake jock types to look up to, they typically have MORE than that. Like your character clad in full armor, some ghost dude, nerdy scientist, insane madmen and so on. I typically enjoy the type of male characters who are chessmasters or schemers rather than the dumb bruisers but I do have choice.

Many games either portray women as tits on a stick or an object to be rescued by the character. The type of variation we come to expect in our male leads is often absent in the arena of female portrayals. Characters like Peach and Zelda (damsels in distress) aren't demeaning (anymore than a beefcake is to me) but when you don't have proper balance it gives off the idea that women can't be anything other than whiny broads and that is demeaning.

I'm all for variety in our characters but blaming capitalism and appeal to young men is simply ignoring the lack of variation in our storytelling mediums which have a great deal to do with how we wind up as adults. Fanservice is one thing but seemingly being unable to make women anything other than support/one-dimensional characters is just unacceptable.

Challenge your audience.

[ronin sparthos]

I could maybe see the logic in regards to things like fighting games because you get to choose the character, so I definitely see the argument for wanting more variety in that case.

The argument becomes harder for games where there is one main character (or with side characters that have specific roles ie. rpgs).

Honestly, I give most fighting games a pass. Many barely pretend to have a story and all the characters are so over the top silly in the first place that it's an arena where pretty much anything goes. Wanna throw in whip chains and ghost pirate? Go for it. A chick with boobs bigger than entire other characters? Whatever. Impossible physics involving a mans arms and a greatsword? Make it so. Most are just boxed fanservice and that's fine. DOA: Beach Volleyball didn't pretend to be anything other than softcore porn.

My problem is more with a situation like Metroid: Other M. When that game completely 180'd Samus from beautiful galactic badass into a whiny, stereotypical damsel I think everyone was rightfully upset because not only did it fuck up the lore of the game, it gutted her character for the sake of telling a weak story.

Samus shoots shit. She's pretty hot in her Zero suit. She makes Ridley and Space Pirates her bitch. She flies around in the swagmobile. People make log entries in sheer terror about it. Is that really so hard to convey into a coherent story about a competent chick? Mass Effect had no problem doing it with FemShep.

[Ksandra]

in rpgs with a character creator variety is obviously a key ingredient. in games with a fixed narrative/character typically over-sexed or over-studly characters are just boring generic stereotypes at best, so moving away from that is not an inherently bad thing. although as always there are exceptions. like Quiet in MGSV for example has gotten a ton of criticism, but atm we don't know much (anything?) about that character/backstory/context and it's quite possible there is a narrative/character driven reason that she's running around in a bikini top and ripped leggings.

I care more about the character designs/personality than clothing tbh.

I think fully clothed women can backfire and bring us back to puritan ages (a bit hyperbolic) where we victim blame women who wear anything less. I think what they design is artistic expression and often catering to current fashion styles. I actually was arguing this elsewhere in regards to the new Lara Croft. Someone commented how she still has a skimpy tank top and her bra is showing. You go around and look at 20 year olds in america and what are they wearing on average? Skimpy tank tops with their bras showing.

While it may not be the prime choice for going into tombs, it definitely caters to current everyday styles. And I think that isn't something to worry about.
If the character is strong (aka Croft) I really couldn't give a fuck what they wear, and I think caring makes clothes into a bigger important issue than they should be.