Rogue/Ninja Discussion

[Sho]

Because we needed this sooner or later.

Pretty sure within 2-3 days everyone who wanted Ninja level'd would be there anyways.

[kisada]

someone put up that ninja rotation analysis post from the other thread!

[darkepyon]

Still doesn't hurt to have a nice and centralized place to discuss the finer points.

Mine's 22 so far and I'm digging it. I wonder how much people are charging for tank/heal dungeon running.

Not sure if this is what you mean, since it's largely comedic, but....

how to dps with nin:

1) get warrior to do storms eye for you
2) open with trick attack
3) mutilate is ninja touch of death
3) spinning edge-shadow fang is ninja chaos thrust
4) spinning edge-gust slash-Aeoilian Edge is the filler DPS combo
5) goad your monk for tp. "lol inferior eastern martial artist"
6) john madden the ninjutsu (really just the attack speed buff and the lightning attack)
7) rabbit medium for the instant victory

kiss of the wasp/viper are cooldowns, mug/assassinate/jugulate probs oGCDs. the only positionals are a rear/front opener and a flank storm's eye. looks like a mix between all the other melee systems with some every-15-seconds naruto BS on top, which you apparently can't interrupt with other skills until you finish the ninjutsu, which seems like it could feel kinda clunky

[Teknique]

How does it hold up at low levels as a dps class? Weak? strong? medium? Soloability? Have you taken a look at the traits? Bonus damage or anything like that available? More info requested before i resub!

[Seravi Edalborez]

All the values in the patch notes are for the traited versions of anything that has one (Kiss of the Wasp/Viper is 5% innate but boosted to 20% with trait).

XIVDB is updated with cooldown times but for posterity:

Throwing Dagger and Mug are from lv15 quests.
Kiss of the Viper is presumably from the 30.

Perfect Dodge: 2min
Hide: 20s
Assassinate: 40s
Mug: 90s
Goad: 3min (20/tick TP regen for 30s; trait upgrades to ???/tic)
SA/TA: 1min
Jugulate: 30s
Ninjutsu: 20s
Kassatsu: 2min
Shukichi: 60s

How does it hold up at low levels as a dps class? Weak? strong? medium? Soloability? Have you taken a look at the traits? Bonus damage or anything like that available? More info requested before i resub!

Feels like any other DPS I guess? Doesn't feel particularly weak but lv20 is not indicative of much.

[Crescendo]

All the values in the patch notes are for the traited versions of anything that has one (Kiss of the Wasp/Viper is 5% innate but boosted to 20% with trait).

XIVDB is updated with cooldown times but for posterity:

Throwing Dagger and Mug are from lv15 quests.
Kiss of the Viper is presumably from the 30.

Perfect Dodge: 2min
Hide: 20s
Assassinate: 40s
Mug: 90s
Goad: 3min (20/tick TP regen for 30s; trait upgrades to ???/tic)
SA/TA: 1min
Jugulate: 30s
Ninjutsu: 20s
Kassatsu: 2min
Shukichi: 60s



Feels like any other DPS I guess? Doesn't feel particularly weak but lv20 is not indicative of much.

Yes, I can confirm the lv.30 Rogue Quest unlocks Kiss of the Viper.

Without trait, Kiss of the Viper is +10%, while Kiss of the Wasp is +5%.

Also the Enhanced Goad trait makes it go from 20/tick TP regen to 40/tick TP regen, effectively making it an Invigorate.



EDIT:

Other stuff

- Equipping the Ninja Job Stone actually changes your run animation when your weapons are unsheathed (ninja-style run from the trailers), as well as your Jump animation (front-flip)

- All your Ninjutsu tooltips actually show in your Job Action menu

- lv.30 NIN unlock is Ten + Ninjutsu skills (so you can only Fuma Shuriken). Lv.35 unlock's Chi.

- Due to skill buffering in combination with how quick Mudra's cast and cooldown, its VERY EASY to accidentally double-up on a Mudra sign. (Basically never mash or you will get the Thumpity Thump Thump). The buffering functions to the point where if you quickly double-tap the mudra sign, it will actually cast both of them in a row, even if the 2nd one was tapped before the first one even began casting. Conversely this might make it very easy to cast 3 mudras in a row by just rapid-tapping through it without any sort of timing, and it'll come out at the earliest possible frame.

- Speaking of which, the Rabbit Head is actually identical to the FF6 Lagomorph Rabbit!

[Arthars]

each "seal" is only 0.50 cd

so if you press your macro asap after a GCD skill, your ninjitsu till prolly go off in 2.5 sec ~ 3 sec tops

so you dont really "lose" much dps between GCD casting 3 seals for hyoton/raiton

edit: nvm forgot the delay before you can use a skill.........

[Deadgye]

Due to skill buffering in combination with how quick Mudra's cast and cooldown, its VERY EASY to accidentally double-up on a Mudra sign. (Basically never mash or you will get the Thumpity Thump Thump). The buffering functions to the point where if you quickly double-tap the mudra sign, it will actually cast both of them in a row, even if the 2nd one was tapped before the first one even began casting. Conversely this might make it very easy to cast 3 mudras in a row by just rapid-tapping through it without any sort of timing, and it'll come out at the earliest possible frame.

Looks like we might as well use macro's no-buffering problem to our benefit to stop accidental double-casts.

[Crescendo]

The Shadowstalker Trait (Tooltip: Allows quicker movement while hidden) seems to be underwhelming. A quick test that I did (stopwatch timing the walk from point A to B before and after I had the trait) showed it to be a bonus 10% movespeed increase while hidden, it's hardly noticeable.

If someone else could test to confirm I got it right or not, would be nice.

[miokomioko]

If it's anything worse than simply removing the movement speed penalty under Hide, it's pretty much a waste of a trait slot.

[Sho]

- Speaking of which, the Rabbit Head is actually identical to the FF6 Lagomorph Rabbit!

Fucking gatlike.

[Alkar]

So... what's the point of Sneak Attack? Notes say that it has 500 potency when used from the front but in-game it's 300. Is there a secret trait or is it a typo?

[Voyage1970]

Was about to mention that actually. Could someone who is level 26 at least do a quick test and see if Aeolian Edge does more damage than Sneak Attack? That'd be a pretty easy way to confirm.

The Shadowstalker Trait (Tooltip: Allows quicker movement while hidden) seems to be underwhelming. A quick test that I did (stopwatch timing the walk from point A to B before and after I had the trait) showed it to be a bonus 10% movespeed increase while hidden, it's hardly noticeable.

If someone else could test to confirm I got it right or not, would be nice.

How is it with the Fleet of Foot trait when compared to a non-NIN class? Like does Fleet of Foot increase by 15% and traited Stealth lowers that by 40% so you get ~70% move speed?

[Crescendo]

Was about to mention that actually. Could someone who is level 26 at least do a quick test and see if Aeolian Edge does more damage than Sneak Attack? That'd be a pretty easy way to confirm.

Target Lv.5 Tiny Mandragora
Kiss of Viper active (+10%)

Sneak Attack = 256-278 Damage
Aeolian Edge (Combo) = 169-174 Damage


EDIT: I just noticed, my Sneak Attack actually does say 500 Potency in the Tooltip... No idea when it changed.

[Seravi Edalborez]

The move+ trait has the same icon. Possibly that?

[Crescendo]

The move+ trait has the same icon. Possibly that?

I just asked a random lv.31 NIN, and his Sneak Attack tooltip indeed was 100/300, and I am lv.32... So you are probably right, Shadowstalker has a hidden effect of changing Sneak Attack from a 100/300 to a 300/500 move...

[Spider-Dan]

Yay, more arbitrary cross-class limitations:

- Perfect Dodge cannot be used by CNJ/THM/ACN
- Goad cannot be used by ARC/CNJ/THM/ACN
- Death Blossom cannot be used by ARC/CNJ/THM/ACN

[Shenrien]

Fuck, melee attacks that cannot be used by mages, who would have thought man. Square really pushing the limit with what they should be allowed to do.

[Spider-Dan]

Perfect Dodge is a melee attack?
Goad is a melee attack?
ARC is a mage?

And for the record, CNJ/THM/ACN can use Mercy Stroke. As a melee attack.

[Elcura]

Most of those don't seem arbitrary though...actually none of them do. I dunno man, classes seem like a bust to me.