Im proud to call myself one of the 1%

[Raelia]

Spoiler: show

God damn was I ever disappointed to get to Zanarkand and find that Yuna couldn't even die properly.

Spoiler: show

And then one shotting all my pathetic summons because I never used Yuna for anything but wipe-dodging. Hastega - Quick Hit - Quick Hit - Quick Hit - Quick Hit - Quick Hit - Quick Hit - Quick Hit - Quick Hit - Quick Hit ... ad nauseam.

[The Stig]

I remember freaking out when I got to Zanarkand as I thought I lost my save and had to start over lol

The trip to Zanarkand represents one of the best mood setters I can think of (it vastly, for me, outweighs FFXIII's Grand Pulse "Dust to Dust" which attempted to replicate it, but because I have 0 idea what it was like before so I didn't feel as much). It still slightly haunting thinking about it now:

> We knew Zanarkand got buttfucked in the intro, but still, Tidus was still so enthuisastic about it as he told his new BFFs
>> (long game of adventure and emotional rollercoaster, people dying due to Sin, Tidus having a blue screen of death temporarily as he was encouraging Yuna to go kill herself faster)
- We eventually arrive at the almighty Zanarkand. Intro is played again, setting the mood once more

A city dead for a thousand years. A city I had to see with my own eyes. The end of Yuna's journey. The last chapter of my story.

- Then, the haunting:


(fuck you remastered track)

plays, and you begin climbing through the ruins to get to the castle of bahamut while it's still playing...

The encounters as you travel along. The music battle music does not play. The feels the feels. The haunting "bell" of the track. The mobs encountered includes spirits of the past (the Fallen Monks specifically) and even harder encounters such as Behemoth (depending on how you levelled). When a battle is won, the victory jingle is not played. The chars do not do their win poses. The music continues. You journey on.

[NynJa]

I disagree with judging the type of game something was (ie was it mature gritty etc) by the graphics of the time....

I wanted to comment on that, but forgot to. The SNES was only capable of so much, not to mention that censors were a lot worse back then (remember all the blood had to be removed from SNES version of Mortal Kombat).

[Fwahm]

I disagree with judging the type of game something was (ie was it mature gritty etc) by the graphics of the time....

Immersion is an important part of certain aspects of video games, which includes getting involved in storylines. Discounting one of the only things that better graphics basically almost always helps with isn't very fair.

[Mercilessturtle]

I wanted to comment on that, but forgot to. The SNES was only capable of so much, not to mention that censors were a lot worse back then (remember all the blood had to be removed from SNES version of Mortal Kombat).

The SNES was plenty capable, the SNES port had better graphics than the genesis port. It was just that nintendo censored the game. Censoring it certainly made it less "mature" and "gritty".

[Spira]

I do have to say that I was really impressed the first time I played FFX that they dared end the game where the main char was just lost like that, no option around it, and in the end faced it. As I stated above, some of us just like our main heroes with a set, not some androgenous teenager who doesn't really want to do anything but pine over a love he can't have and try and wield a sword too big for him. The only redeeming quality of Tidus was that in the end he faced his fate for the greater good.

X-2, while gameplay was incredibly enjoyable (in particular the % completed tracker) felt like a way to placate those who were sad there wasn't a lovey-dovey ending to FFX.

Haha unfortunately Square (or Square Enix) is like the Disney of the RPG world and caters to adolescents and romantics. Most everything has to have some kind of happy ending

[Mrbeansman]

Whats really tragic about VIII's story is how awful the romance elements are even though VIII was supposed to be this big love story. Squall and Rinoa have only slightly more chemistry then Anikin and Padme in Attack of the Clones.

[Spira]

i actually liked how VIII exemplified the dark side of "love".. or perhaps the better term to use would be relationships. the uncertainty.. the pining.. the dependency, the second guessing.. the melodrama.

(and if you subscribe to the R=U theory, the extremes that love will drive you to. i think the only other time we've seen something to that extent is.. Wings of the Goddess..)

[Ophannus]

FF8 was just too easy. If you were good at Triple Triad and didn't mind a few hours of grinding Adamantoises, you could have Lionheart by the end of disc 1. Combined with level scaling and being able to convert weaker spells into higher tier spells and then junctioning them to your stats, almost every boss could be cheesed with stats that you shouldn't even have until way later in the game. Triple Triad and card modding made the game a bit too easy but I guess that was half the fun. Also I feel like they fleshed out Quistis so much for the first few hours of the game and then for the other 2 discs, she takes a back seat. She obviously had a crush on Squall, but after Rinoa came into the picture, that whole potential love triangle/quadrangle was eliminated/forgotten and Quistis kind of has no other purpose for the rest of the game except for having generic dialogue here and there. She stops being an interesting character or a leader-type figure, even though technically she's the most experienced out of the entire team, being somewhat of a child prodigy and instructor at the age of 18. Even though she relinquished her duties and leadership formally, her expertise/leadership is never deferred to ever again.

[Fwahm]

You can only break FF8 like that if you know how beforehand, either from a previous playthrough or from online. FFVIII is potentially the easiest, but it's also potentially pretty hard if you do things wrong, like not know how to junction good spells and you overlevel so the mobs are all super powerful.

[Byrthnoth]

As far as plot comparisons, I'm not sure I've ever played an RPG that had a "good plot." I think this is why video games (even action games or survival-horror like resident evil) crossovers make such shitty movies. A lot of books make good movies, but reading and watching a movie are both passive experiences.

People ultimately play video games for the active component. As such, developers typically just treat the plot as a way to motivate players to move from one minigame to the next. Another issue with storytelling in video games is that the experience isn't consistent and depends on the player. You can't guarantee that everyone is going to get the full backstory if you hide it on a random NPC somewhere, even if that's the perfect NPC to provide the info. You also can't guarantee they're going to play continuously, and unlike a book they can't just go back a few chapters to catch up on the story and then read forward again. Long plot arcs should be discouraged, although they're frequently still used. For instance, I have never finished FFXII because I forgot what the hell was going on and I basically couldn't ever find a way to grab on to the plot again. I went around and fought judges or some shit, but I had no idea what was going on anymore and wasn't engaged enough to figure it out. Also, if there was any foreshadowing of the major plot twist in FFIX, I played the game slowly enough that I couldn't remember it when I got there.

[Ophannus]

Xenogears/Xenosaga had exemplary plots, especially if you've watched Evangelion and researched a bit about all of the Judeo/Christian/Hindu/Greco-Roman mythos they pay homage to. Having played all of the FF games, none of the plot points really made me say "ohhhhhhhhhh shiiittttttttttt" as much as the Xeno series has.

[dasva]

I think part of it isn't so much the plot is bad as it is a difference of active and passive as you say and most of these games are at least somewhat character driven plot even if it is somewhat motivated by the story. The plot driving characters in games are played by you so essentially have no personality or will of their own. They are designed to be to an extant the hero you want (within the bounds of the storyline) with you projecting yourself into them... If you make the main characters in a movie like that well logically the story would never progress without making the story into being completely story driven with some whiny pushed into every situation character like Shinji or Squall in advent children. Alternatively they could flesh out those characters hopefully somewhat based on the actions you had to take to advance the story in the game but then invariably that will completely clash with the hero you had in your mind when playing.

[Ophannus]

I kind of liked FF13 and FF6 for the simple fact that there isn't a 'main character' per se. Sure, you start off as Terra and Lightning respectively, but by the end of the game, they are sharing the stage with other characters with strong personalities(except Hope, worst character ever, ever) that you kind of forget about them as being the 'lead'. Lightning/Fang are kind of both strong female protagonists in the same vein as Terra/Celes were. Smaller casts are always preferable to me I think. Take Chrono Trigger for example. Each character is extremely memorable because everyone stays relevant for the entire game. In FFX, Wakka. Lulu, Khimari are relatively boring and bland characters after their story arcs. After the Luca tournemant or Mount Gagazet, these characters stop being important to the plot, whereas Auron/Rikku/Tidus/Yuna carry 90% of the game. FF7, Cait Sith, Yuffie, Vincent were boring characters because they played second fiddle to Cloud Tifa Barret Cid.

I think it's important to keep the entire cast useful and relevant, and FF8 tried to but then it fell off after their story arcs. After Irvine's failed sniped attempt, he doesn't contribute anything to the plot except for the stupid concert crap in Fisherman's Horizon. After Quistis relinquished her role as Instructor, she didn't contribute anything to the plot aside from the missle base scenario but only because the party was split. What happened to the intelligent, prodigy, machine gunning, instructor for the first half of disc 1? FF9 was an improvement as everyone was important and added depth and commentary throughout the whole game, it was the only game where pretty much every character had their moment in the sun and up until the very end every character remained just as relevant(except maybe Quina). Square just has this thing with their storylines where they introduce cool, interesting, powerful characters, then once they join your party and their main arc is over, they kind of get reduced to a shell of their former self and take a backseat position to the others, only adding in generic, contextual dialogue instead of real plot-moving dialogue.

[Fwahm]

I think part of it isn't so much the plot is bad as it is a difference of active and passive as you say and most of these games are at least somewhat character driven plot even if it is somewhat motivated by the story. The plot driving characters in games are played by you so essentially have no personality or will of their own. They are designed to be to an extant the hero you want (within the bounds of the storyline) with you projecting yourself into them... If you make the main characters in a movie like that well logically the story would never progress without making the story into being completely story driven with some whiny pushed into every situation character like Shinji or Squall in advent children. Alternatively they could flesh out those characters hopefully somewhat based on the actions you had to take to advance the story in the game but then invariably that will completely clash with the hero you had in your mind when playing.

Except that for the exception of games like Pokémon or Legend of Zelda, the characters DO have personality or will of their own. You control where they wander and how fast they get to their destinations, but whenever you get to the next plot scene, you have no (or inconsequential) control over how they react. No matter how much you want to, you can't make Cloud become a social butterfly, you can't make Squall give up on Rinoa, you can't make Zidane stop flirting with everyone (at least before he grows out of it as his character arc progresses), and you can't make Tidus accept his dad before the ending.

The majority of story driven games like RPGs don't have self inserts as their main character.

[dasva]

I didn't mean all of them or even completely you do that just the less linearity you have and more active participation you give someone the more you do that to an extent even if it is somewhat forced.

I mean sure the only way to advance the plot is to do whatever but you could always

http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/...3561164949.jpg

[Fwahm]

As far as plot comparisons, I'm not sure I've ever played an RPG that had a "good plot." I think this is why video games (even action games or survival-horror like resident evil) crossovers make such shitty movies. A lot of books make good movies, but reading and watching a movie are both passive experiences.

People ultimately play video games for the active component. As such, developers typically just treat the plot as a way to motivate players to move from one minigame to the next. Another issue with storytelling in video games is that the experience isn't consistent and depends on the player. You can't guarantee that everyone is going to get the full backstory if you hide it on a random NPC somewhere, even if that's the perfect NPC to provide the info. You also can't guarantee they're going to play continuously, and unlike a book they can't just go back a few chapters to catch up on the story and then read forward again. Long plot arcs should be discouraged, although they're frequently still used. For instance, I have never finished FFXII because I forgot what the hell was going on and I basically couldn't ever find a way to grab on to the plot again. I went around and fought judges or some shit, but I had no idea what was going on anymore and wasn't engaged enough to figure it out. Also, if there was any foreshadowing of the major plot twist in FFIX, I played the game slowly enough that I couldn't remember it when I got there.

That sounds more like a motivation problem than a problem with the games themselves. It's easy to say that if you forget stuff in a book you can just look back, but it's not nearly that easy when plot hints and development occur over hundreds of pages. Plot heavy video games are not designed to be enjoyed over long periods of time, and not getting the full experience if one isn't able or willing to play them as they're intended isn't a slight against them. The difference isn't that big anyway. If I'm reading a long book or book series and take a big break, I won't have much less catching up as with a video game, especially with modern video game amenities such as online cutscene compilations and game scripts for popular video games. Lots of gamers play story driven games for the story first, and for the gameplay later. For example, look at the Ace Attorney series. By the standards of almost all other types of video games, the gameplay to story ratio is tiny. And yet, people love it. There are tons of games that don't use the story as merely a device to put gameplay in, but treat it just as importantly, or even with more importance than the gameplay itself.

Personally, I blame the difficulty in adapting video games to movies to the alternating pattern of gameplay and story scenes that plot driven video games have. Someone translating them to a movie would have to somehow convert both wildly differing experiences into a unified and consistent result that is suitable for the wide screen, and that's not easy, or even possible in some cases. In addition, books are easier to translate to movies just by their nature; books are essentially greatly expanded scripts, which lends itself naturally to becoming an actual script for a movie.

[Fwahm]

Except in games with very significant branching structures, like certain visual novels, you don't really have any control over the main character at all during plot segments. The most you can do is answer insignificant multiple choice questions, which end up affecting nothing other than textual flavor 99% of the time. Main characters always respond to events based on how they're written, not how you see them or want them to act. You only have control over them in gameplay terms, not story terms (barring things like multiple endings, but those almost always fit within the characters they are written as anyway).

[dasva]

Again not saying you are making significant changes to the game or story but your perceptions of the character and the minor details that aren't really important to the story but can make small differences like Arciela liking you!

[Fwahm]

The perceptions of a character should be based on their actions, not a preconceived notion of what you think they should be based on nothing, and their actions are essentially fixed as what they are within the story.