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  1. #61
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    I mean, you kind of have to feel pity for RPG plot designers to some degree, because they would have to make like 50 excellent storylines if they let it branch, unless they were exceptionally clever about it. That's why games that do allow branching are typically shorter.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fwahm View Post
    The perceptions of a character should be based on their actions, not a preconceived notion of what you think they should be based on nothing, and their actions are essentially fixed as what they are within the story.
    And yet those perceptions can change when given even simple more or less inconsequential choices that are sometimes not even really a choice at all. You might find them pointless while someone else finds the important. A person that sticks just to progressing the storyline because that's all that matters might have a highly different outlook than the person that completes all the miniquests. Even in a more passive media like film people will often insert there reasons and motives behind the actions of people and they will differ person to person but it becomes more common in something like a game or even a book really where you are more actively engaged

  3. #63
    Relic Horn
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    Unless the game's plot is written badly, any optional miniquests that can be undertaken will only reinforce the characterization (but at the same time not be essential to understand it) that the main plot gives. The characters don't suggest become different beings when you do optional stuff.

    Likewise, inconsequential optional choices also generally don't conflict with the characterization within the main plot. For example, the choice at the beginning of FFVIII when the doctor asks Squall how he's feeling. Both choices show nothing about his personality that the other doesn't, and are both mutually consistent, and only result on a decision on a whim, and neither affect more than one or two lines. No matter what choices you pick throughout the game, Squall's actual, relevant character and actions are completely identical. The result of what happens if he's asked if he wants ice cream or something is completely irrelevant to the qualities of the character and affects things so minutely that it has zero effect on anything that actually happens.

    In my house, I have two hallways I can go through to get to the kitchen from the foyer. If I choose left, that doesn't mean anything in terms of my personality or character, it just means that I felt like going left that time. The vast majority of choices in non-branching, story driven games are like that, and are only there for a tiny bit of flavor, or to give a tiny bit of illusion that you're affecting things when the story is moving.

  4. #64
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fwahm View Post
    and are only there for a tiny bit of flavor, or to give a tiny bit of illusion that you're affecting things when the story is moving.
    That is precisely what I'm talking about. You think it means nothing or we have no choice, someone else thinks it means something or we do have a choice, someone else a little something else and everyone disagreeing on this tiny flavor differences like we are now

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    I think it's important to keep the entire cast useful and relevant, and FF8 tried to but then it fell off after their story arcs. After Irvine's failed sniped attempt, he doesn't contribute anything to the plot except for the stupid concert crap in Fisherman's Horizon. After Quistis relinquished her role as Instructor, she didn't contribute anything to the plot aside from the missle base scenario but only because the party was split. What happened to the intelligent, prodigy, machine gunning, instructor for the first half of disc 1? FF9 was an improvement as everyone was important and added depth and commentary throughout the whole game, it was the only game where pretty much every character had their moment in the sun and up until the very end every character remained just as relevant(except maybe Quina). Square just has this thing with their storylines where they introduce cool, interesting, powerful characters, then once they join your party and their main arc is over, they kind of get reduced to a shell of their former self and take a backseat position to the others, only adding in generic, contextual dialogue instead of real plot-moving dialogue.
    A lot of people seem to forget that the majority of the cast in VIII are teenagers, and most teenagers talk big when they're in their comfort zone, but as soon as you take them out of it and put them in real world situations, they are at a loss. That's my interpretation of why most of the characters changed after Disc 1, shit got real and for the most part they weren't equipped to deal with it.

  6. #66
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    ^ yeh, contrast to Laguna, Kiros and Ward whom were adults and significantly more experienced. One of the better parts of the game I enjoyed really. I pray they make a FFXV type FFVIII prequel of the trio clowning around during the war, escaping, reaching Deling city, the ruins... finally to Esthar, etc (alternatively, as I keep hounding about it, an FFX prequel of Braska, Auron and Jecht).

    FF9 was an improvement as everyone was important and added depth and commentary throughout the whole game, it was the only game where pretty much every character had their moment in the sun and up until the very end every character remained just as relevant(except maybe Quina).
    One enjoyable thing I found with FF9 was that thing that triggers when you get to certain places in town which allows you to view what the other characters are up to. Forgot what it was called, but that sticks to mind.

  7. #67
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    FF9 was one of my favorites but that's a bit hypocritical to say all the characters remained relevant. Freya fell off after Bermecia and Amarant always felt pointless imo, but he barely influenced anything.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byrthnoth View Post
    As far as plot comparisons, I'm not sure I've ever played an RPG that had a "good plot." I think this is why video games (even action games or survival-horror like resident evil) crossovers make such shitty movies. A lot of books make good movies, but reading and watching a movie are both passive experiences.

    People ultimately play video games for the active component. As such, developers typically just treat the plot as a way to motivate players to move from one minigame to the next. Another issue with storytelling in video games is that the experience isn't consistent and depends on the player. You can't guarantee that everyone is going to get the full backstory if you hide it on a random NPC somewhere, even if that's the perfect NPC to provide the info. You also can't guarantee they're going to play continuously, and unlike a book they can't just go back a few chapters to catch up on the story and then read forward again. Long plot arcs should be discouraged, although they're frequently still used. For instance, I have never finished FFXII because I forgot what the hell was going on and I basically couldn't ever find a way to grab on to the plot again. I went around and fought judges or some shit, but I had no idea what was going on anymore and wasn't engaged enough to figure it out. Also, if there was any foreshadowing of the major plot twist in FFIX, I played the game slowly enough that I couldn't remember it when I got there.
    This is why I've always enjoyed when an RPG has a lorepedia or a story section where you can easily rewatch cutscenes or get information on a character if you haven't played in a while. Lorepedias like Tactics Ogre's Warren Report, Tales of Symphonias Story Summary or Valkyria Chronicles Personnel File go along way in giving the scenario planners point of view to the player and clearing up any particular questions you may have about the plot.

    As for consistent storytelling in video games? That's what JRPGs are for. Barring sidequests not important to the plot most players are getting the exact same story experience. It's primarily the reason why WRPGs are currently the flavor because people want to 'choose-their-own-adventure' rather than be handheld through setpieces.

    I think video game movies translate poorly more because of what gets chosen to be adapted and how the source material is handled more than anything else.

  9. #69
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    Amarant was the token badass in a JRPG. They typically get a pass on plot relevance.

    Other examples in the Final Fantasy series include:

    - Zell from FF8 (this dude checks up on his mom twice. How many RPG chars go home to see how their family is doing? That's badass to me.)
    - Shadow in FF6 although his sacrifice towards the end is pretty important to the plot.
    - Wakka in FF10. I know people will contest with Auron because Auron is the real badass of FF10 but think about it. This is a world with guns, blades, and sorcery but this dude chooses to fight with what amounts to be a soccer/dodge ball. He's like the video game equivalent of Odd Job from the James Bond movies. A dude like that is scary as fuck. In FF10 this dude is able to fucking throw a light weight ball while riding on top of an airship going who knows how fast against however much wind resistance with pin-point accuracy and enough force to injure a fucking dragon. Even if you don't like him as a character, that's some gangster shit right there.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draylo View Post
    FF9 was one of my favorites but that's a bit hypocritical to say all the characters remained relevant. Freya fell off after Bermecia and Amarant always felt pointless imo, but he barely influenced anything.
    Does every character need to have world-shaking effects on the plot though? Quina was comic relief, a gameplay monster and had a small arc about growing up. It was pretty clear from the onset that Quina was going to be a 'mascot' character anyway. 10 had Khimari, who aside from setting some plot elements in motion essentially acted as your wise Native American character. Both were relevant but took backseats to the primary wavemakers.

    I think people tend to criticize FF unfairly, often with the paintbrush of games trying to accomplish something entirely different. As a series, Final Fantasy is pretty YA novel in its way of handling things in a mature but very pared down fashion. Makes sense when the target audience are teenagers.

    The magic of the series is that it doesn't get bogged down in trying to serve up hyper-realism or meta meta plots the way many of the western studios are currently handling their properties to varying degrees of success. You have an ensemble of characters on a journey around the world full of magic, crystals, ye olde kingdoms, spaceships and other grandiose set pieces while your villains plot bad stuff. Commence a Final Fantasy title.

  11. #71
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    I know there isn't much 14 love around here but story wise I really like Coil. The CS between Turns 12 and 13 is just awesome, definitely one of best FF moments I've had. I know SE is trying hard to keep it off the internet, but if you can find it, its awesome.

  12. #72
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    Wish they'd make more FFDimensions style mobile games. I liked the neo-retro 16bit after years and dimensions titles. Wish they made more of them because they're fun to play while commuting, or mindlessly grinding while waiting for an appointment or waiting in line to order food. The stories were light, the jobs were fun, good boss battles, quick save, etc. bravery default is excellent but i just want more new/unique ios/android ff titles.

  13. #73
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    Wasn't FFTA and FF12 in the same universe and not FFT?

    Quote Originally Posted by AoE View Post
    Amarant was the token badass in a JRPG. They typically get a pass on plot relevance.

    Other examples in the Final Fantasy series include:

    - Zell from FF8 (this dude checks up on his mom twice. How many RPG chars go home to see how their family is doing? That's badass to me.)
    - Shadow in FF6 although his sacrifice towards the end is pretty important to the plot.
    - Wakka in FF10. I know people will contest with Auron because Auron is the real badass of FF10 but think about it. This is a world with guns, blades, and sorcery but this dude chooses to fight with what amounts to be a soccer/dodge ball. He's like the video game equivalent of Odd Job from the James Bond movies. A dude like that is scary as fuck. In FF10 this dude is able to fucking throw a light weight ball while riding on top of an airship going who knows how fast against however much wind resistance with pin-point accuracy and enough force to injure a fucking dragon. Even if you don't like him as a character, that's some gangster shit right there.
    This is so true lol, I never looked at it like that.

  14. #74
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    Yea I believe FFTA did have the same bunny eared peoples and moogles ect... as 12

  15. #75
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    "Final Fantasy Tactics: Advance", and "Tactics Advance 2: Grimoire of the Rifts" take place in the same "Ivalice" as FF12. They also had "Final Fantasy 12: Revenant Wings", an RTS style game based on FF12... which I personally enjoyed the shit out of.

    Tactics Advance 2 even had some characters from Final Fantasy 12 in it...

  16. #76
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    Vagrant Story lives in "Ivalice" too. Both FFT and the FFTAs are set there as well. The whole thing is complicated and more stylistic/thematic than "this game comes N years before this game in an internally consistent world", though, especially with regards to the FFTAs. Lots of matching place names, some references between games, but a lot of stuff does't hold up to scrutiny if you try to make it all "work" (outside of games that are direct sequels to other games- that works, well, mostly, heh). Matsuno just likes the setting, and I tend to agree with him. Names like "The Pharos at Ridorania", "Lesalia Plains", "Necrohol of Nabudis", etc just roll off the tongue so nicely, and the dialogue is generally sort of Old-English-stilted to make it all sound natural. Crimson Shroud is probably meant to live somewhere in the mix too, in his head, at least in a "we resemble but are legally distinct from..." way. Ditto Unsung Story too, if it ever comes out. I mean, "Rasfalia", "Alionne", "Jheksal Empire"?

    There's a big honking wikipedia article on Ivalice that's worth reading if you're into that kind of thing (with the usual caveats about wikipedia).

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