Thread: Patch 2.55 Notes    

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

It may be the modern MMO but it doesn't make it good... and if you're not arguing its good and you're just sayin' it how it is, well, we all know thats how it is now, so the point is moot and I'm confused why its brought up. We know thats how much modern MMOs are now, doesn't make it suck less.

So, how do you unsuckify it?

As for dangerous mobs, I just find myself reminded of Aion. Swathes of zone real estate jam packed with mobs people never killed and were an annoyance to run through for the occasional quest/mission you had to. Wasted space. Wasted dev time.

Game is still pre-first expac tho so I'll keep hope alive... Also, finally beat the trial earlier today. Duty finder never fails to amaze me with it's terrible players...

aion was beast yo XD those elite mobs. rifting, was so fun, but too hardcore for many people. it would lived another 5 years if there were a 3rd player faction....

and yea eventually people just run through them to destination, making all wasted resources in the end

Originally Posted by arus2001

So, how do you unsuckify it?

I'm not arguing I can do it better and create the perfect MMO, If I could I would be getting paid for it, I'm not, they are. I know my own limitations and its not an easy task to break the MMO mold and come up with new ideas for quest goals... but if your intent is to imply just because I cannot do it, then it cannot be done or to make some kind of point like "well can you do it better" than shame on you. That argument is flat terrible. Also further terrible because regardless of if I could do it better, its incredibly unlikely i would get recognition from any MMO developer to come up with ideas to help improve quests beyond A > B > Cutscene. And its not that these types of quests are inherently terrible, its the blatant laziness behind some of them that make them terrible. For instance... standing at a desk for like 15 seconds, or any of those "Heres an arbitrary wait period for you".

But if that isn't your intent I apologize for the above and you can ignore it(Srsly ignore it) and just read this... I'll say including more content that Isn't slaughtering sleep inducing open world fodder or arbitrary "Wait" times at locations... is a good start. Heres some examples, minor ones.

Spoiler: show

1) More challenging enemies would help break the monotony of some of the quests. All of them are "fall asleep auto-attacking and you'll probably still win" quests. Adding enemies around the power of the 4-8 Man Maps would be a decent start. I know, teaming up with people in an MMO is so inconvenient it hurts.

2) If they go a solo route for Kill X mobs, Less "Go kill open world mobs" and more "Instanced" content would be nice. Quests that involve goals in an instanced zone (think Moblin Maze Mongers) could be nice, it would give them more freedom for options... I mean, imagine how fun dungeons could be if they weren't as face numbingly linear as everything else int he game. Example: Enter a cave to rescue some miners, simple enough, but give the player options on how to approach it... Fight your way through a buttload mobs and rescue them in a direct route, Fight less enemies on a side path to blow a wall out to get them out, or do a long jumping puzzle/stealth to above their location to blow it out and rescue them without fighting a single enemy if you're good. Adding multiple routes to an objective goes a ways in making the player feel less like an errand boy and more like someone who can use their wits or strength to get the job done how they see fit.

I should also the types of quests described don't have a place in an MMO, if done in the right way or at least in moderation that can be enjoyable, you can even mask the monotony by just making it fun, like Hildebrand. Its less about reinventing the wheel and more about fine tuning it. Also, the game allows you to jump, and not a single quest I can think of makes any real use of this feature. If you're going to have jumping, bring on some jumping puzzles.

Originally Posted by Fhloston

Game is still pre-first expac tho so I'll keep hope alive... Also, finally beat the trial earlier today. Duty finder never fails to amaze me with it's terrible players...

I don't have super high hopes as Yoshi has pretty much said shit will remain about the same (at least as endgame goes), but I still have hopes the game will break into its own stride instead of following the footsteps, pace for pace, of other MMOs. I mean, I still log in semi-regularly so I don't hate the game :D

its been awhile but I remember a lot of XI story stuff just being run from point a to point b to talk to this npc then run to point c to talk to this one then run to point d and back to point A.

Well, CoP wasn't like that, Everything in CoP was big fights. Now granted that was because a lot of areas were locked behind progression in CoP. in XIV overworld was there for you to go to from the start. You didn't have to progress to be able to access areas (besides dungeons) so unless they do that again with Heavensward you likely wont see anything like that again. ToAU and WoTG was a lot just running around getting CS and killing trash with some fights here and there. I cant speak for SoA.

Exp from quests feels like cheating, especially when it's a delivery quest. Would be funny getting 1-50 sunply from exploring new areas and doing non combat related quests. Reach level 50 then shout that delivering items and findig new zones chiseled your player character into a mighty battle-hardened Warrior.

Originally Posted by Ophannus

Exp from quests feels like cheating, especially when it's a delivery quest. Would be funny getting 1-50 sunply from exploring new areas and doing non combat related quests. Reach level 50 then shout that delivering items and findig new zones chiseled your player character into a mighty battle-hardened Warrior.

Now, does it only feel like cheating because of how XI was? Ive played plenty of other MMOs and they all give exp for quests. XI was one of the few that didn't.

Ugh seriously why has this thread become "why can't XIV be an HD XI?"

Originally Posted by Kaslo

Ugh seriously why has this thread become "why can't XIV be an HD XI?"

Thats how most threads seem to end up when people have no news to feed off of till the next live letter.

Let us not all forget, please keep your "reliving of the good ol ffxi days" to this thread dedicated to FFXI
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-Kujata-Thread

as FFXIV, isn't going to become FFXI unless one of you got obscene amounts of irl cash to force the company to steer the game into that direction anyway >.>

Does anyone have a link or MP3 of the piano version of Breaking Boundaries, the theme that plays during your lvl50 job quest and:

Spoiler: show

Plays during Raubahn and Ilberd's fight

?

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

It may be the modern MMO but it doesn't make it good... and if you're not arguing its good and you're just sayin' it how it is, well, we all know thats how it is now, so the point is moot and I'm confused why its brought up. We know thats how much modern MMOs are now, doesn't make it suck less.

People actively do not want the kind of experience that pre-nerf CoP main scenario questline provided. They didn't even want it back then, which was why it was nerfed. You had a vocal minority of ivory tower static groupers who were able to clear, and everyone else who thought it was a hellish grind of slogging handcuffed through useless levelcapped zones after grinding single R/EX battle items for each individual fight.

You might as well be arguing for a return to the days of leveling down on death (to make sure that people are properly motivated to stay alive).

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

People actively do not want the kind of experience that pre-nerf CoP main scenario questline provided. They didn't even want it back then, which was why it was nerfed. You had a vocal minority of ivory tower static groupers who were able to clear, and everyone else who thought it was a hellish grind of slogging handcuffed through useless levelcapped zones after grinding single R/EX battle items for each individual fight.

I do. I would love it. I found it challenging and enjoyed overcoming that challenge. I understood when they uncapped everything late in the game but it completely dumbed the whole thing down.

In terms of FFXIV though I just want things to be more dangerous. I want there to be zones or areas in zones where I have to be really careful or I'm dead. There's nowhere in 2.0 where I feel the slightest bit threatened.

Well one thing that contributes to that is that mobs reset and deaggro if you run like 20' from their spawn site and mobs generally path slower and poorly in this game so they're quite easy to avoid whereas in other MMO's mobs move as fast as you or faster and retain aggro for quite some distance(in ffxi its basically forever unless you run like 30' ahead of them which is almost impossible without clipper/flee/pinning on environment or exploiting weather/deodorize)

@LinktheDeme

Spoiler: show

The Warrior of Light doesn't fight back because he'd be in the wrong to do so. I know it's an MMORPG and you'd love to do whatever you want, but boot up a Legend of Zelda game and Link won't kill NPCs. That's just the way it is, your character is too moral/upstanding your own personal headcanon be damned he's not going to break the law and draw his blade in the Fragrant Chamber. However when he's asked to kill a primal to save the world vs. killing an army of human beings to save his own skin, I think it's easy to see. Best case you can argue he trusted in the Scion's ability to get him out/Midgardsormr to save him somehow/Hydaelyn to come to his aid.

The story makes pretty big overtures to the reasons why you're able to walk around Ul'dah. The common people / smallfolk / what have you don't know of what happened in the Fragrant Chamber. The official story is an adventurer attempted to poison the sultana and now she's sick in bed. The adventurer might've conspired with the Scions. They don't name the Warrior of Light as the murderer; though they do name the Scions (which confuses the general populace due to the Scions otherwise stellar reputation as saviors of Eorzea). The only people on the expressed lookout for you are the Brass Blades and Crystal Braves; almost every NPC who's part of either faction reacts differently to you if you talk to them post 2.55. (Fufulpa will say something like "You look an awful lot like the adventurer I'm supposed to arrest, don't you? [I don't believe a word of it Rocl! Not you! But you'd better keep out of sight etc."]) The majority of the Brass Blades either know not to fuck with the Warrior of Light by themselves or to just look the other way because he's actually the good guy. Same with the Crystal Braves.

There's no reason we'd have to leave Eorzea per se. Not being allowed in Ul'dah would make sense, but it's a massive coverup right now and by barring our entry it might cause more unrest in the city and spark a civil war the Monetarists DON'T want. (As opposed to the Civil War they do want) Gridania and Limsa are both our allies and every NPC / GC NPC mention this-- even the NPC who would normally take to the Lotus Stand mentions the Seedseer vouches for your innocence within Gridania's walls. However, they dare not make a public announcement for fear of setting Ul'dah on the path to civil war. As it stands right now, Ul'dah is still the bankroll behind the Eorzean Alliance; the Alliance pretty much has to remain intact for the good of Eorzea and they're just trying to pretend nothing happened while figuring out wtf to do. It definitely seems like nothing went to plan for anybody; the Monetarists didn't expect Raubahn to go berserk and the Eorzean Alliance didn't expect Nanamo to be killed.

As for the Azure Dragoon thing, we don't kill him. We fight him and he disappears afterwards. We best him in combat, he appeals to Nidhogg for more strength/a draconic form, we stop him, he's gone ??? Alberic mentions him as "missing" and not dead--an oversight that he keeps this dialogue post 2.55 Additionally Estinien acknowledges our fight by saying he won't cross blades with us when Aymeric introduces us to him. I think they might even mention that Estinien's theft of the Eye by way of saying he had more contact with it than an Azure Dragoon normally has and so is able to better understand that it was, in fact, Nidhogg who is calling the Dravanians to war. Another thing to note is Alberic mentions the theft of the Eye is kept a closely guarded secret of Ishgard when Estinien has it.

That said lol, Estinien can just walk out w/ the Eye yet a dragon the size of a fucking house and a magical shedemon primal can't get it.

It's likely that certain quests are set in a specific chronological order of "pre-2.55" with CUL quests being among them.

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I'm not arguing I can do it better and create the perfect MMO, If I could I would be getting paid for it, I'm not, they are. I know my own limitations and its not an easy task to break the MMO mold and come up with new ideas for quest goals... but if your intent is to imply just because I cannot do it, then it cannot be done or to make some kind of point like "well can you do it better" than shame on you. That argument is flat terrible. Also further terrible because regardless of if I could do it better, its incredibly unlikely i would get recognition from any MMO developer to come up with ideas to help improve quests beyond A > B > Cutscene. And its not that these types of quests are inherently terrible, its the blatant laziness behind some of them that make them terrible. For instance... standing at a desk for like 15 seconds, or any of those "Heres an arbitrary wait period for you".

But if that isn't your intent I apologize for the above and you can ignore it(Srsly ignore it) and just read this... I'll say including more content that Isn't slaughtering sleep inducing open world fodder or arbitrary "Wait" times at locations... is a good start. Heres some examples, minor ones.

It wasn't meant as an attack. The questing paradigm you're effectively calling into question has existed as early as dial-in BBS games, maybe even earlier than that. There might've been some slight improvements that the jump from text to graphics may have allowed, but that's more a matter of deviation than creation. Overall, I welcome good ideas and generally agree with the sentiment that we're not the ones being paid to come up with content, but at the same time, I don't feel remaining silent does the genre any good. So, yeah, ideas may get the whole stand alone complex things going on with copies and no existence of an original, but why risk that? Be vocal, even if you do get haters for it. You might be surprised who may feel similar, but either can't articulate their thoughts well or are afraid of the put downs from those who don't want the status quo changed. Ideas can also evolve from such things.

1) More challenging enemies would help break the monotony of some of the quests. All of them are "fall asleep auto-attacking and you'll probably still win" quests. Adding enemies around the power of the 4-8 Man Maps would be a decent start. I know, teaming up with people in an MMO is so inconvenient it hurts.

TERA tried this with their BAMs and I know Rift also did it until the SL expansion with endgame dailies and such. In both, it usually boiled down to a lot of time wasted shouting for a group that may or may not form with the right people. Those classes fortunate enough to be able to solo would do so, and sometimes things would oddly become more difficult in parties. Nonetheless, the end result is that TERA BAMs were eventually nerfed (in part because level progression curve included these quest EXP values) and Rift largely dropped the elite killing metric (because not playing the game is bad).

2) If they go a solo route for Kill X mobs, Less "Go kill open world mobs" and more "Instanced" content would be nice. Quests that involve goals in an instanced zone (think Moblin Maze Mongers) could be nice, it would give them more freedom for options... I mean, imagine how fun dungeons could be if they weren't as face numbingly linear as everything else int he game. Example: Enter a cave to rescue some miners, simple enough, but give the player options on how to approach it... Fight your way through a buttload mobs and rescue them in a direct route, Fight less enemies on a side path to blow a wall out to get them out, or do a long jumping puzzle/stealth to above their location to blow it out and rescue them without fighting a single enemy if you're good. Adding multiple routes to an objective goes a ways in making the player feel less like an errand boy and more like someone who can use their wits or strength to get the job done how they see fit.

I should also the types of quests described don't have a place in an MMO, if done in the right way or at least in moderation that can be enjoyable, you can even mask the monotony by just making it fun, like Hildebrand. Its less about reinventing the wheel and more about fine tuning it. Also, the game allows you to jump, and not a single quest I can think of makes any real use of this feature. If you're going to have jumping, bring on some jumping puzzles.

What MMOs really need to do, aside from better facilitating user generated content, is to look into the randomly generated map model you'd more frequently see in things like Diablo. I know us XI vets may liken this to Nyzul, but I wouldn't. Those were static maps with binary walls toggled one way or the other with too much emphasis on the time crunch (because, hey, fake instancing!). No, what needs to happen is they effectively create terrain puzzle pieces that would link at fixed points to other pieces. One path may lead to a dead end, the other wouldn't, but you could then further spice this up with varied mob combinations and spontaneous objectives or even bonuses like finding worthwhile treasure chests or killing everything. Some maps may wind up with multiple bosses. Some might have the boss early on with the rest of the area more about exploration. Mind, algorithms could exist to more likely give people specific types of these "dungeons" should they favor a particular one, but I am a firm believer that the static instance model needs to go, as that tends to breed the urge to speed run and demand specific things. When you simply don't know what's going to happen, having more well rounded groups should be ideal. I also feel it would breed better players where quick thinking and adaptability shines over reading a guide and memorizing patterns. Not that those would 100% vanish.

I don't have super high hopes as Yoshi has pretty much said shit will remain about the same (at least as endgame goes), but I still have hopes the game will break into its own stride instead of following the footsteps, pace for pace, of other MMOs. I mean, I still log in semi-regularly so I don't hate the game :D

My cynical glass is half empty, too, but I pretty much apply that to the genre as a whole. For games where private servers are a thing, I wish they were better, or lacked the elitist nostalgia they tend to carry along with them alongside hosts who foolishly believe environments created with thousands of players in mind could be truly sustainable with a likely sub-100 active population at all different levels of progression and interest. Then again, maybe I'm just turning into angry old codger who feels video games are just going to shit because it's either all been done or devs are afraid to innovate, instead giving us yearly sports and FPS titles.

Originally Posted by Rocl

@LinktheDeme

Spoiler: show

The Warrior of Light doesn't fight back because he'd be in the wrong to do so. I know it's an MMORPG and you'd love to do whatever you want, but boot up a Legend of Zelda game and Link won't kill NPCs.

Spoiler: show

I think you're forgetting about this guy http://www.11points.com/images/zelda...yesofskull.png I used to hit him on purpose to manipulate game RNG during speed runs. and then there is always the Cucco. I do get your point though


Semantics aside though, those people are trying to summon the omega weapon and bring havoc down on eorzea, to not engage them and destroy them before its a threat is allowing Eorzea's demise. There have been numerous times where we've engaged NPCs and killed them when they threaten to harm yourself or an individual. The gladiator quest, the main story quest (when they were going to frame the person for the bread), puglist quest, numerous encounters with the syndicate in the past, and etc. In addition we have no quarells with killing Garleans, whom are humans just trying to rid the world of primals, however we have a quarrel with humans trying to bring the destruction of Eorzea and murdering leaders while confessing to it at the same time? I see no difference in this except we've actively just watched them murder someone of high power in eorzea and threaten to balance all of it. Far worse than what the garleans have done to Eorzea, barring Nael.


The brass blades and crystal braves gave zero fucks about engaging us before, I don't see why now they would think us the good guy. In fact the Crystal Braves were the ones that poisoned the sultana and both the brass blades and the crystal braves were the ones that framed us to begin with. All of the crystal braves that held loyalty to the scions were disposed of they said. So all of the ones that wear the cloak at this point are in with the syndicate/new leader.


With regards to an adventurer poisoning the sultana, didn't the lalafell say that the syndicate were going to pin the blame on you and that he was going to do his best to dispel it because people wouldn't believe that the warrior of light would do such a thing?


edit: Also since the Azure Dragoon did not want to fight, how did he return to his senses suddenly? He was completely possessed by Nidhogg. . .

I don't want to drag this much further off topic, sorry. Spider -

Spoiler: show

Originally Posted by Spider-Dan

People actively do not want the kind of experience that pre-nerf CoP main scenario questline provided. They didn't even want it back then, which was why it was nerfed. You had a vocal minority of ivory tower static groupers who were able to clear, and everyone else who thought it was a hellish grind of slogging handcuffed through useless levelcapped zones after grinding single R/EX battle items for each individual fight.

You might as well be arguing for a return to the days of leveling down on death (to make sure that people are properly motivated to stay alive).

I had no static group, at best I had maybe a couple friends who (back then) were as undergeared and meh as I was, and they didn't even progress with me post-Omega. Was it frustrating when we failed at the Promyvion fights? Yah, but it wasn't so hard that I didn't feel extreme joy stepping foot in Lufaise and hearing the music for the first time. Its a effort to reward balance that made it worth while. I know not everyone would clear as timely as me, but that exists in XIV already. Ever tried farming Triple Triad cards? You'll get in in a timely manner, or you'll go 0/800 or so and hate your life. We can pretend old XI grinds don't exist in XIV, but they do, so I'm not sure this "keep XI away" is justified when frankly its already here. Atma grinding, Alex grinding, TT Card collecting(which in good old XIV fashion has absolutely no purpose beyond the "stamp collecting" as Yoshi put it), so on. These huge grinds are already here.

But to the point of CoP. I managed to clean CoP Pre nerf in a pretty timely fashion I would say. Just like the official forums claiming that this newest trial is "too hard", its just bullshit. I mean can I truly say that I found every bit of CoP fun? No, I can't, but even the hard parts were fun enough that it felt rewarding when I won. Omega/Ultima, easily one of the most hated/difficult fights, I cleared in my second or third try. Tenzen I think I went 2/3, and I one-shotted the final boss lol, aside from my attempt to solo it on SMN... which I managed to get him to phase 2 >_>. The difficulty of the Pho. Aquaducts and places like the ... I draw blanks but the place with the Swift belt NMs... those places were super difficult I admit and not always fun, it was a chore to get the people if you missed the prime (which is why they were nerfed). Its not all fun, its not all great, some of it really sucked, but it doesn't mean the whole damn concept is bad.

I do not want FFXI HD (well, I wouldn't say no to it, but thats not what i want XIV to become at all), I'm only (trying to?) saying that there are some good ideas and concepts that XI developed over its over-a-decade long lifespawn that could be introduced into XIV while still keeping to XIVs gameplay. XIV borrows from a lot of MMOs already, I don't see why everyone fears borrowing from XI, its not like they would just Copy > paste everything, it would be repurposed to fit XIV. There's also a lot of good concepts from 1.0 that could be brought back with a new face.

This MMO rides the wave of Nostalgia, they even have models from XI's weapons and armor coming in. Its borrowed from other MMOs before. I'm not saying build the game again from the ground up as an XI clone, I'm saying some ideas XI had could make great events for XIV. As Arus said, randomized dungeons would be interesting, at least longer than the current model. I believe time-crunched stuff like Nyzul Isle could also be fun in XIV... Events like BCNMs would be cool... though I think trials are essentially BCNMs lol, but i'm thinking more of things you fight that drops multiple items/materials/etc/chanceatarare. GW2 Jumping Puzzles i bring up a lot, that would go a way to making the open world more fun. I mean, people jump around Mor Dhona to get to usually unaccessible places already, just make that a damn event/Puzzle and put a chest at the end that you can open once a week.