Enmity post march 2015 patch

[Sechs]

Anybody want to share their impressions?
Aside from Vagary (where mobs seem to have a somehow clunky enmity because of factors I can't fully understand) it seems that outside of it it's working... nice?
It's not perfect, but it seems to me it's in a better position than it was before the march patch, from a tanking point of view.

Provoke now generates an amount of enmity that, compared to the Damage>Enmity current conversion, kinda matters.
Stuff like Flash and Foil are insane.

I suppose in a long fight where DDs go all out in zerg mode there's no big difference, but in all other situations I had the impression that tanking is almost viable?
Dunno, overall I kinda got a positive vibe, from a tanking point of view and from the few situations I've experienced post patch.

[Damane]

on anything with any hate reset move, tanks are gonna be necessary, especially when you can pull hate off DDs with one cure IV sometimes :/. Havent done much events with my shell members and i know CP partys arent the correct place to judge, but pulling in CP partys constantly hate with cure 3 or 4 is funky.

[Darvamos]

Not a fan of it yes it great for RUN and PLD. But I;m constantly tanking in delve now on whatever stun job I decide to go as. WHMs tend to pull a lot of hate to esp when curaga spamming. Also kinda of broke RNG; really no point having either relic. Tho it is a nice cor can now shout and not really worry about hate either.

[ColenzoRidesAgain]

I would say its basically fixed. Sure it may not be perfect but I don't really expect perfection. I do however expect functionality and from what I can tell you can absolutely bring whatever DD job you want. As long as you have a proper tank you wont really have to worry about them pulling hate so much now.

[Sechs]

Yes, my impression was that Colenzo.
And yes, it may be broke for setups without tanks but, guess what, in theory they should've never worked.
Just add a tank (or a DD with tanking abilities which do not rely only on damage) and those "hate with stun/cures" shouldn't be an issue anymore.

Despite the flaws seems a more balanced and coherent system than one where tanking is unviable because tanks cannot keep hate, to the point where you don't even use tanks and just rely on DDs to "tank".

[Damane]

Yes, my impression was that Colenzo.
And yes, it may be broke for setups without tanks but, guess what, in theory they should've never worked.
Just add a tank (or a DD with tanking abilities which do not rely only on damage) and those "hate with stun/cures" shouldn't be an issue anymore.

Despite the flaws seems a more balanced and coherent system than one where tanking is unviable because tanks cannot keep hate, to the point where you don't even use tanks and just rely on DDs to "tank".

oh not saying it doesnt work, its just an annoyance because we are used to something else. DDs just need to sub somethign different then sam or war that has hate-tools at disposal for them. (in most cases /war is enough tough, ecxept for longer fight).

only DD job not affected by this should be BLU since they never addressed once Bluespell hate amount.

[Prothescar]

blu remains the best source of enmity (including unengaged) while retaining a sizeable defensive benefit from magic. wouldnt be entirely unreasonable to use one in place of a pld if you can find one that's good enough. that said i dont see much point, let PLD have some action again. it's been long enough

[Sechs]

RUN! Yo, RUN! Where is mah RUN? RUN!
And NIN!

#WishfulThinking

[dasva]

Yeah run gets hate really well now probably almost as well if not better than blu. I wouldn't say this is "fixed" per se but that it works pretty well with mobs that have I would guessimate around 100-300k hp depending on lvl but will most likely still have problems with mobs too far out of the hp to lvl ratio they tweaked this for. Though from the looks of things this will mostly apply to ones decently lower as it appears that even if you do capped CE that it will be difficult to maintain capped VE just thru dmg which has made all those previously semi useless high VE low CE moves now the more useful enmity moves... my only real complaint is how weird it works in places with alliance hate and the fact cures stayed the same despite only 1 "tank job" getting native cures. Man SE has a hard on for pld

[Damane]

RUN! Yo, RUN! Where is mah RUN? RUN!
And NIN!

#WishfulThinking

dunno with this update they didnt revert RUNs rune enmity back. RUN/anythingbut WAR kinda hurts without provoke :/. guess i'll need to get those empy sets fully upgraded for a boost of enmity.

[Teorem]

After 4 DD in my party have been meleeing for 30s in Delve, I pulled hate away with a Curaga that cured for a total of 90HP. During a bit of CP farming, a COR in my party deals melee damage and a 6k Leaden Salute; Kupipi cures him for 700HP and pulls hate immediately (and gets subsequently 2-shot).

It's annoying, especially for content where you're not depending on a tank and shouldn't need to.

[dasva]

dunno with this update they didnt revert RUNs rune enmity back. RUN/anythingbut WAR kinda hurts without provoke :/. guess i'll need to get those empy sets fully upgraded for a boost of enmity.

Why would you /war for provoke for hate on a job with native mp and so much native fast cast? Assuming flash/foil spamming wasn't enough I'd imagine using a sub with other high hate spells that you can get lower than 30 seconds would be better

[Sechs]

content where you're not depending on a tank and shouldn't need to.

I think this is the key factor that we might need to change in our mindset.
What is content where you need a tank? Why do you need a tank?
"Making enmity flow correctly and keeping hate off healers and dd" is one of the main reasons why Tanks are used in MMOs.
Given this premise, it just means that we now *need* tanks in content where before you could walk through without a tank (which was >90% content in FFXI and, frankly, it was quite preposterous. How many MMOs do you know that allow that?)


@Dasva
/BLU makes RUN into a hate god. But it's quite MP intensive, hard to do that without either ballads or refresh2 etc, altough I suppose the new Empy body might help with that.

[dasva]

After 4 DD in my party have been meleeing for 30s in Delve, I pulled hate away with a Curaga that cured for a total of 90HP. During a bit of CP farming, a COR in my party deals melee damage and a 6k Leaden Salute; Kupipi cures him for 700HP and pulls hate immediately (and gets subsequently 2-shot).

It's annoying, especially for content where you're not depending on a tank and shouldn't need to.

Yeah that's part of the problem is on low hp stuff like cp mobs you could melee it to death any never get a lot of hate. Though part of the leaden thing is that probably only about 1-2k of that dmg actually counted towards enmity because of the way magical ws enmity works. Speaking of which I bet magical ws are the bees knees now for hate. Trueflight probably kicks the crap out of coronach in terms of hate per dmg dealt... especially with all these crazy geo hijinks

[Damane]

Why would you /war for provoke for hate on a job with native mp and so much native fast cast? Assuming flash/foil spamming wasn't enough I'd imagine using a sub with other high hate spells that you can get lower than 30 seconds would be better

oh against DDs its no problem, but against a co-tanking partner pld/war that benefits from your inspiration his /war provoke gives him the edge on holding hate not to mention all the enmity+ gear pld has. I was more referring to that.

NIN/DRK
DNC/NIN
BLU/NIN
(swap subs to your likeing)
are good substitute hybrid DD alternatives that can hold hate and mitgate dmg

[FaeQueenCory]

dunno with this update they didnt revert RUNs rune enmity back. RUN/anythingbut WAR kinda hurts without provoke :/. guess i'll need to get those empy sets fully upgraded for a boost of enmity.

90% agree.
Only 90% because damage was the way RUN maintained hate... Or at least one of the ways.
Establishing hate from 0 is pretty easy enough... But the maintaining it high took a bit of a punch....
Really wish there was more PDT/DT on the empy set... Especially the body.
The enmity retention effect of PLD empy legs were always stupid. (As in ungodly good.)
So I expect the empy body to be the same for enmity retention.....
Not that that helps when you're dying from uncapped PDT. (Using body-hands-legs-feet, you need 38% to cap from other slots... Can reduce that if you don't use the hands, but that's more set bonus proc and more attack. PDT options 3~4%, all have 13~20acc so you're not hurting yourself there.)

I also haven't been on the butt end of curing but once, and it was my fault.
Delve Tojil no less, so shame!
They pulled a bunch of adds with Tojil and the DDs went after a bunch of different ones which +Tojil spinning put people in yellow WAY too fast so I cured too much and when Tojil was ready already had too much hate on him to not pull hate with every cure after that.
But like I said, it was my fault for curing too much...
With a clean pull I've not pulled hate on WHM once.
So I guess this update punishes Abyssea-trained Curaga V spamming WHMs.
Not gonna complain about that. People really shouldn't be Curaga V anything... Just not worth it, but then it never really was outside of Abyssea.

Fucking blows for stunners though. A good stunner shutting down every bad TP move and spell pulls MASSIVE hate.

[Martel]

I'm foreseeing a gearing shift for cures/stuns towards enmity-. <,<

But anyway, from a PLD pov, this is freaking glorious. I have yet to lose hate on any NM, even with the 99k magic bursts and shit my LS' mages are doing(see vagary thread.) Mob didn't even twitch. It's quite a change from before.

Although I've yet to experience the other side of this change, since I'm been almost exclusively PLD since the update.

Soooo, SE. Next on my PLD wish list is about another 50% fast cast, ok? Since they seem to want us spamming spells again like it's 2005. <,< Oh, and flashga.

[vivbiibasjiu]

The enmity changes further cement WHM into their curing monopoly, at least they have Cure 5 and 6... doing a cure 4 on RDM or SCH or god forbid an accession cure 4 is suicide now

[Sechs]

SCH can Ride on Animus Minuo (which is like, what, enmity -20?) and could cast cures with reforged AF3 body (more -enmity) instead of Reforged AF2 (Healing skill+).
SCH also has the boon of the very powerful Regen 5 which usually gives you a bit more time to breath between cures.
Gives you a bit more freedom without sacrificing too much gear for -enmity.

You sure can't spam C4 until there's no tomorrow, but if you're smart with your heals I can see it being viable.
It's true though they should maybe rework a bit how Tranquil Heart works.
Either give it more tiers (after all the highest one atm is level 30) or empower the current ones.
I could see that happening in one of the next patches.


Despite its many flaws, I still think that from an overall point of view, the current situation looks healthier for the game than a scenario where tanks do not exist in >90% of the game content because DDs act like tanks.
A scenario that, frankly, looks quite preposterous when compared to other MMO games, I've always pointed that out over the last years.

[Martel]

Tranquil heart doesn't have "Trait" tiers per say. It's potency is based on healing skill, so there's really no need for the trait itself to increase. It's also a separate term from enmity- gear, so it ignores the -50 cap.

Maybe they should change the -enmity cap like the did the enmity+ cap, though.