Game Watch Translation - Yoshida Interview on Heavensward (EU Media Event 5/19)

[Lucavi]

Yah but I mean, 13 years of profitable service means something. Gear variety was to many essentially all XI had going for it.

It does! The game was - is incredible successful. I'm sure there's a shit ton of awards its going to win (provided games actually won actual awards) when its all said and done, including most successful MMO by a non-U.S. company in history. That comment was more in regards to the fact that its -still- the only one, 13 years later, with anything close to that gear system, and the game itself is about to go into a comfortable retirement around the end of this year.

Why do you think that is? Why do you think that, in a world where if you ain't stealin' ideas and mechanics from your rivals and forebearers, you ain't tryin'... why do you think that no one has stolen that? Hell, its no secret that XI is a Japanese-masked EQ/Ultima mash-up, and we know that WoW took from plenty of games and that most games today take from WoW, so why is no one taking XI's system and trying to build something around it? Cyncism aside, its either about the money (the risk involved of doing something that ain't cookie-cutter, despite having a step-by-step guide on how to do it ala. XI) or about the design (someone working on the game thinks that there's something about the system that they don't want to go with).

The more you think about it, the more of a surprise it is that so many companies try to redesign the wheel when it comes to interacting with the world this and retelling a familiar story that... but no one touches the horizontal system that XI basically founded. Hell, XI itself started to cross over into WoW territory by adopting ilvls.

Make your own conclusions about it, but ultimately I feel that its simply too complicated of a system to invest massive resources into trying to craft a balanced progression of content while trying to balance an extremely wide amount of skills and stats. When you can +100 to vit with vit meaning a number of things and +100 to defense with defense values meaning a number of things and +10% to damage reduction with all three having different mitigation weights and amounts and +enhancing of job skills that may provide bonuses to all of the above... and that's just defense... I dunno. I could see that taking awhile. Maybe no one's willing to take that risk, even though they take stupid risks all the time (like pushing games out way before they're ready to launch and bombing horribly in the process).

Does that mean I don't want to see the return of actual ability-enhancing stats? Fuck no, I love having +15% extra multi-shot damage in Diablo 3 - stacking that shit up to the point where I'm literally quadrupling the damage of a single move through +% affixes - and would love to have +11% extra health gained when using Inner Beast, or +1-2 seconds on the Hallowed Ground duration, but it also means exactly what I said earlier: that I think its too complicated a system to balance in progression-based games for any company that isn't made of billions to actually invest the R&D time and money to perfect within their MMORPG. I think that's why we haven't seen it yet.

I think the closest thing we'd get to it would be some WoW/Diablo MMO hybrid from Blizzard, since they already have a semi-wide system in D3 that enhances not only raw stats but class abilities.

Shit, we could sit here all day and dream up badass affixes for a wide gear system... but good luck implementing that with any sort of fairness. The closest thing I could think of would be some Korean Grinder RNG system where you can spend a currency to randomly "roll" affixes on your gear, but then we're talking diminishing returns and the cornering of markets for those resources and a whole lot of other problems.

[Spider-Dan]

XI is the most profitable FF ever and XIV has a long way to go before it can think about challenging it. To present XI as some sort of failure is lunacy.

[Lucavi]

XI is the most profitable FF ever and XIV has a long way to go before it can think about challenging it. To present XI as some sort of failure is lunacy.

You didn't read anything I said. No one's presenting it as a failure, lololololol. Profit, however, has nothing to do with utilizing a system from XI within another game. That's the focus of my point, not the commercial or critical success of the game.

[Vyvian]

... but no one touches the horizontal system that XI basically founded.

I would say that the reason this is, is because XI as a game didn't actually require balance. It didn't matter if MNK's dps was equal to SAM's or WAR's. A THF did crap damage, but it was brought for TH. Some jobs were meant for low man or soloing (BST, DNC, PUP) and just couldn't compete in a high buff situation. Instead of a system like FFXIV where you have 1 main class and it has a basic role for all content "DPS, Heal, Tank," and by extension needed to be functional in all content, you had a huge pool of situational roles, and each class was actually more specialized. Some excelled at being alone, others could do nothing by themselves.

When you say 2 things don't ever have to be equal, you are a lot more free to expand on "fun gear" because you don't really have to worry about severe breaks of balance. I always felt when I played, that FFXI's mentality was "if your job doesn't work in this content, bring a job that does work" because barring your own group's lotting rules, there really wasn't any restriction to gearing up multiple classes at the same time. FFXIV gates you with high-tier tomestone limits and raid lockouts.

[Destinye]

You didn't read anything I said. No one's presenting it as a failure, lololololol. Profit, however, has nothing to do with utilizing a system from XI within another game. That's the focus of my point, not the commercial or critical success of the game.

The main issue is: It's not WoW enough as a tl;dr. Post WoW it's pretty much expected to be like that, which is why despite what TERA does right, the basics are horribly dated and no different. Yoshida wants us on a rotation based system..making more complex gearing throws that out the window and "confuses the new player" - He goes to great lengths to make sure people who never touched MMOs or RPGs can pick up and play. Fine for business..horrible for retention. There's a lot of systems in XI that they could utilize but won't and the main reason; "the new player."

Hell, they should by all rights have used the Mog House system as a basis, the Porter Mog system as a basis, and utilizing the open slots on armor. Armor and weapons have about 9 slots (unless that changed recently) they can populate with data that doesn't count materia, the slots were the extra bonuses and 'set bonus' - So it, once again, comes down to Yoshi willingness. It sure would make things more interesting and yeah balance is a fine mistress...but he already has everyone on "the same playing field' and he tunes everything towards casuals and obsoletes everything after an update unlike XI did largely so...balancing in terms of ARR seems to come in the form of "obsolete, 2 ways to get max gear" so in all actuality..it just drives incentive if you want to specialize..since after all people do cry for more 'customization', and it won't come in the form of skills.

[Seha]

I believe that taking risks is sometimes necessary. At the moment FFXIV seems too scared to even try to steer a single step off its very strict rails(maybe cause of how hard v1 failed). But at some point they'll have to or this game won't have a long lifespan - at least not under a sub.

Customization adds a lot to a game, because it means feeling involved beyond just the repetitive endgame(every endgame is repetitive in every game, only so many things you can change at some point). When I say customization I mean both gear and cross class abilities. Even without gear swapping(which I still believe to have been genius in FFXI), those things increase longevity and interest by a very long shot. They motivate you more than just capping your ilvl, which means you will keep playing longer even if only between patches if you're a steady player regardless.

It's a lot of work to design, but they have a big staff, that shouldn't be a concern.
Obviously balance is the biggest risk when you increase customization, sure. But balance can be adjusted along the way. That's why I say you have to take risks, you can't avoid change forever for fear of a momentary inbalance.

Biggest thing that keeps interest is and always will be novelty. If you add the same type of content all the time, you will lose people.
Add gear that is different.
Allow combos that are different.
Offer battles that are different.
That keeps people in the long run. You can't expect the initial mix to work forever.

[Spider-Dan]

As I've said before, I can accept that 2.0 had to be simple and safe because of 1.0's failure. I get that.

But at some point, WoW-with-moogles is not enough. Playing it safe by sticking to the established formula is a philosophy that has been repeatedly proven to fail in the post-WoW era. I feel like right now, XIV's primary lifeblood is that there is no console client for WoW.

[Sho]

But at some point they'll have to or this game won't have a long lifespan - at least not under a sub.

Why do people make comments like this? You have to be insane to think that FFXIV will fail or have a shortened lifespan at this point. It's basically achieved the status that FFXI post Zilart & Chains of Promathia. It's not going anywhere regardless of what direction the devs take the game. It will do well over 10 years just like FFXI, if not up to 15 or more. I'm not saying the numbers will maintain, gain subs or lose. I'm just saying that the game is successful enough to maintain it's P2P status, just like it's MMO predecessor.

[Ramset]

Not as bad as Cage's 12121212.

"You gotta hold dat, nigga!"

I bet you main Dhalsim in SF.

[Lucavi]

I would say that the reason this is, is because XI as a game didn't actually require balance.

So, then, is the solution to make a new MMO that doesn't require balance? What would end-game look like, then? Would there be a concept of raiding?

I bet you main Dhalsim in SF.

I main Rufus, so no, I can't hate that much, but I mained him before he was cool or found to be really good. A fat, agile martial artist.. I had to main him! I mained Bob in Tekken for the same reason! My boy, though, is Arturo Sanchez, so I feel the Dhalsim plight!

I believe that taking risks is sometimes necessary.

People say that all the time, but what does it actually mean? Are risks that you personally don't see as risks actually still risks? Plenty of MMOs are taking risks. Like I said before, having development schedules pushed up to the point where games get shoved out 6 months early - that's a risk. Wildstar planning on having some magical subset of hardcore players from 2004 completely funding their MMO into some juggernaut - that was a risk. Age of Conan hoping to to have a tortage-quality entire game while on a rapidly shrinking budget - that was a risk. GW2 going straight into F2P from the get-go and trying to keep people paying for the game through the cash shop and goodwill - that was a risk. They all failed miserably, but they were certainly risks. Star Wars/Star Trek Online and many others went straight to F2P. Wildstar is a joke that's going straight to F2P. Age of Conan masked their terrible planning and issues by packing 80% of the entire game's content into the first starter island - and then went straight to F2P.

Do none of these risks count as risks to you simply because they don't involve making a game look 0% like WoW? Is a risk still a risk even if you don't personally see it? I'd argue yes.

Why do people make comments like this?

Because it "helps" to solidify a point that they're trying to make if they assert that not following their suggestions in regards to some entity will lead to the doom of said entity. Its gone on for eons throughout history. Look at all the "Blacks/Jews/Democrats/Republicans/Gays/Lesbians/Mexicans/Arabs/Obama is/are ruining our country!" comments all over the goddamn place. And before you chime in, SD, XI doesn't follow this model since we already KNOW that its winding down into retirement. No one had to actually suggest that "XI needs to do this or that or it'll die". SE told us themselves that its going to a retirement home. It ain't closin' down, but it won't follow the same update lifespan of a traditional MMORPG.

[Destinye]

Why do people make comments like this?

It's just the way new MMOs that were P2P have been - they drop P2P eventually...hell F2P/P2W makes the most money in the end anyway.

It will do well over 10 years just like FFXI, if not up to 15 or more. I'm not saying the numbers will maintain, gain subs or lose. I'm just saying that the game is successful enough to maintain it's P2P status, just like it's MMO predecessor.

In a perfect world for sure - But the MMO base has become so fickle and wishywashy lately it's hard. XI was released at a good time - In ARR's era, it released when WoW was in a content drought, so that helped dramatically, but even WoW bleeding millions of subs but not a lot came over. So it is possible, being optimistic, but realistically, this is definitely a different time compared to XI so who knows..yoshi may go full yoshi and 180 something that pisses off the entire playbase in 2 months for all we know.

[Spider-Dan]

Why do people make comments like this?

Name another casual-oriented WoW clone to maintain a subscription fee through, say, two expansions.

[Elcura]

I thought you liked the whole "just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it's impossible" thing. However, it's likely they'll do fine regardless.

[Seha]

Well, discussion becomes pointless the moment you inject whatever it is you're trying to antagonize onto me.
I don't give a damn about World of Warcraft and I haven't touched XI other than an en passant comment about gearswapping, which still I dismissed despite enjoying it.
Nor I understand your political parallel, which is completely out of place and unfitting for anything I'm saying.

You're one to talk mocking Draylo in XI threads if you get up in arms so easily just cause someone said subscription model won't hold on under x conditions.

Maybe if you reread my post without injecting the idea that I'm trying to bash the game you'll have a better understanding of my point of view.

[Lucavi]

Who are you talking about? I'm asking if you recognize those as forms of risk-taking. Companies have and do take risks all the time. You need to specify what types of risks you're talking about (mainly the types you want to see) when you give the "its important to take risks" statement.

If you took my post as thinking you're out to "bash" anything, perhaps you need to re-read mine. If you construe my words as "getting up in arms", again, you need to re-read it. There's no arms about anything other than making sure that people understand that there are more risks than what they personally see as a risk.

Anything "political" wasn't directed towards you anyway, so calm thine teats.

You still haven't answered. What do you want to see in a "risk-taking" venture? What are the risks that need to be taken for you to view them as being actual risks, because risks are frequently taken, as I've stated.

Usually horrible, shitty risks, but risks nonetheless.

[Elcura]

Well, discussion becomes pointless the moment you inject whatever it is you're trying to antagonize onto me.
I don't give a damn about World of Warcraft and I haven't touched XI other than an en passant comment about gearswapping, which still I dismissed despite enjoying it.
Nor I understand your political parallel, which is completely out of place and unfitting for anything I'm saying.

You're one to talk mocking Draylo in XI threads if you get up in arms so easily just cause someone said subscription model won't hold on under x conditions.

Maybe if you reread my post without injecting the idea that I'm trying to bash the game you'll have a better understanding of my point of view.

Whaaaaat?

Doesn't matter, I had something for what you said earlier.

I believe that taking risks is sometimes necessary. At the moment FFXIV seems too scared to even try to steer a single step off its very strict rails(maybe cause of how hard v1 failed). But at some point they'll have to or this game won't have a long lifespan - at least not under a sub.

Customization adds a lot to a game, because it means feeling involved beyond just the repetitive endgame(every endgame is repetitive in every game, only so many things you can change at some point). When I say customization I mean both gear and cross class abilities. Even without gear swapping(which I still believe to have been genius in FFXI), those things increase longevity and interest by a very long shot. They motivate you more than just capping your ilvl, which means you will keep playing longer even if only between patches if you're a steady player regardless.

It's a lot of work to design, but they have a big staff, that shouldn't be a concern.
Obviously balance is the biggest risk when you increase customization, sure. But balance can be adjusted along the way. That's why I say you have to take risks, you can't avoid change forever for fear of a momentary inbalance.

Biggest thing that keeps interest is and always will be novelty. If you add the same type of content all the time, you will lose people.
Add gear that is different.
Allow combos that are different.
Offer battles that are different.
That keeps people in the long run. You can't expect the initial mix to work forever.

Most games are just momentarily imbalanced as stuff is either effective or not depending on the time of the year. You want balance as if you can just snap your fingers after adding Willy Wonka's factory of customization because "it can be adjusted along the way"? Some risks are necessary? Yeah, like changing the entire battle system twice, bouncing P2P to F2P models and rebuilding the game from the ground up. XIV already took a lot of risks, hell it took a lot of risks when it first came out. You aren't wrong to expect change or want it but I find the idea that gear/cross-class/star arenas suddenly changing how everyone feels about the game is super idealistic. And this suddenly ramp up of creativity that 3.0 is expected to bring has people going crazy because WELL 2.0 WAS SAFE TIME BUT 3.0 IS MY TIME. I get that, but calm down and see what's up first before blowing up.

Hype is a helluva drug.

You mean all fights, gear, jobs/abilities are just going to be adjusted to suit some arbitrary value just because last time they made some gear for you? You want combos that are different? They're doing that already. What combat skills should be novelty? You want gear to be different, but no one seems to know what level of effectiveness this different gear should have (again, what novelty?) Frankly people should just say fuck balance make a game so 1 sided that I have fun (and maybe other people too). What about battles needs to be different? Maybe arenas that aren't circles or fights that aren't 4/8 people?

It's easy to say do this and that, it's but about 1000x harder to actually do it, hell it's hard enough to think about it a way that isn't utterly dreamlike. You can't want vast, awesome customization and practical balance at the same time, certainly not immediately or without great thought, work or time.

[Seha]

You still haven't answered. What do you want to see in a "risk-taking" venture? What are the risks that need to be taken for you to view them as being actual risks, because risks are frequently taken, as I've stated.

Usually horrible, shitty risks, but risks nonetheless.

I already said that. The risk of straying off strict rails. And I already recognized that the entirety of ARR was a huge risk, and I'm not talking about what should happen in Heavensward either, because the game is fine for now, I was referring to the longway, something like 2-3 years from here. Simply cause I thught it was an interesting topic of discussion.

You, and apparently Elcura too, seem to be misunderstanding that I want to make this about -me-. I actually tried not to go too much into my personal preferences territory as to try and keep the discussion as objective as we can try to make it, cause my point is not what I wish in my FF(there are obviously things I'd want and wouldn't, we all have opinions), but what from my experience works and doesn't in the long road.

Either way, variety and balance can coexist, sure it's no trivial matter(in some games more, in others less), but it can be achieved.

Whaaaaat?

Clearly wasn't directed at you.

[Lucavi]

I already said that. The risk of straying off strict rails. And I already recognized that the entirety of ARR was a huge risk, and I'm not talking about what should happen in Heavensward either, because the game is fine for now, I was referring to the longway, something like 2-3 years from here. Simply cause I thught it was an interesting topic of discussion.

2-3 years should be at least into the next expansion pack, so if they haven't broken the mold by then, there will most likely be more than a few people long in the tooth over their drive for the game, yes.

You, and apparently Elcura too, seem to be misunderstanding that I want to make this about -me-. I actually tried not to go too much into my personal preferences territory as to try and keep the discussion as objective as we can try to make it, cause my point is not what I wish in my FF(there are obviously things I'd want and wouldn't, we all have opinions), but what from my experience works and doesn't in the long road.

I don't think you make it personal, and I don't think my posts reflect that at all. I simply want to know more about what "off the rails" means. I simply get a lot of blanket statements from your posts (perhaps because you're trying to stay objective) when I want actual specifics. Are we talking off the rails in terms of linearity? Gear? Leveling? Stats values? There's so many ways "off the rails" could be interpreted: I want you to do the work and explain it so that I know what you mean.

Its gotta be about you if I'm asking for you to explain how YOU feel. I don't need some canned, safe response. I'm asking you for your thoughts. Give them or do not give them.

Either way, variety and balance can coexist, sure it's no trivial matter(in some games more, in others less), but it can be achieved.

In your humble opinion, which pre-existing game does balance and variety the best, either still active or dead. I'ma smack someone if they say The Matrix Online.

[Elcura]

I already said that. The risk of straying off strict rails. And I already recognized that the entirety of ARR was a huge risk, and I'm not talking about what should happen in Heavensward either, because the game is fine for now, I was referring to the longway, something like 2-3 years from here. Simply cause I thught it was an interesting topic of discussion.

You, and apparently Elcura too, seem to be misunderstanding that I want to make this about -me-. I actually tried not to go too much into my personal preferences territory as to try and keep the discussion as objective as we can try to make it, cause my point is not what I wish in my FF(there are obviously things I'd want and wouldn't, we all have opinions), but what from my experience works and doesn't in the long road.

Either way, variety and balance can coexist, sure it's no trivial matter(in some games more, in others less), but it can be achieved.

Clearly wasn't directed at you.

Quotes are a thing for a thing, especially if the person you're responding to is a few posts back.

You also talk about the future without even seeing what HW has to offer, which is jumping the gun quite a bit. What if HW eventually fixes the concerns you have about gear, battlefields and (LOL)cross-class? Wouldn't it be easier to say what needs to happen after seeing what happened?

Given like 2-3 major patches you'll have a solid idea what needs to change and what is likely to change if you pay attention.

[Karbuncle]

In your humble opinion, which pre-existing game does balance and variety the best, either still active or dead. I'ma smack someone if they say The Matrix Online.

I'd like to think Guild Wars 2 does Variety pretty well. most classes have many viable and useful skill set ups/weapon set ups, and all the highest gear has multiple types (They do have an Item-level like system, but theres different types of armor at the end, for instance... every armor has 3 stats, a Main stat and two sub stats, but those can be

Power
Precision
Ferocity
Vitality
Toughness
Condition Duration
Healing
Condition Damage

So you can choose a set that has High Power/Precision/Ferocity for Attack/Crit.Rate/Crit.Damage and go full glass cannon, or use a Power/Vit/Tough set, or Condition damage for DoTs, and each class has a skill combination that will work with most of these armor sets. You can also Gem/Socket items with "Runes" which grant a wide variety of bonuses from extra Toughness/VIT to Summoning a Parrot when hit and Screaming "YARRR!" to grant Might to nearby allies. They add a lot to the game. Accessories can also be gem'd with different things but usually if you have a Berserker's Accessory you put in a Berserker's Gem, as builds work that way, but you can put any gem you want in them. Ascended equipment (The current highest tier) also has "Infusion" Slots which primarily is used for Agony resistance but Infusion slots have Defensive/Offensive purposes which offer small bonuses to the stats above. Getting a good Infusion item though can be a lot of work, so its a long term upgrade (or simply a very expensive one).

For classes and Skill "trees", On thief alone I've done a glass cannon build, a Stealth build (for PVP), a "Venoms/Might" Build which is a team/support build I really enjoy playing, and a Ranged build which involves mostly Glass-cannon but utilizing a bow. Also weapon variety determines skills and theres a few really good viable ones, Sword/Dagger and Dagger/Pistol are really competitive in PVP, and D/D S/P are great in PvE. And each of these play very differently. My Glass cannon set is "Kill them before I die" and you just go apeshit, the Stealth build is about situational awareness, Stealthing, and Going in for hits before disappearing again and recovering your HP, the Venom build is about support, setting your skill tree to support Venoms, augmenting them to be AoE and grant "Might" (a Power/Condition damage buff that stacks in power), and Thief has the ability to set up to 5 venoms (One in every secondary slot) allowing me to give my team 5 venoms with a variety of effects (Stone-ing the enemy, poison, Bind, Life-steal, etc) and it feels fun and with all this variety I can choose how I want to play and be effective.

It doesn't have all these wild stats like Double Attack and such like FFXI had and it contains much the same stats as XIV with a bit more variety, which I do find appealing, but it has variety in a lot of ways. Skill "Trees" which you can reset/adjust whenever, Weapons in Main/offhand that determine your skills, Armor with a variety of combos to best fit how you're playing, and so forth. Some jobs have more builds than others, and in PVP some classes have advantages (which doesn't man you'll win), but every strong class has a strong counter, so if its advantaged by one it advantages another like an elemental wheel. Its pretty balanced.