Game Watch Translation - Yoshida Interview on Heavensward (EU Media Event 5/19)

[Lucavi]

GW2 was pretty fun for itemization. I can't remember how much it actually mattered in Fractals and such - all I can remember is that if you didn't have enough of that agony resistance, you were boned. I can't remember all of the criticisms of the actual gearing system, I just remember people saying bosses took too long to kill in some dungeons, and, in my experience playing (I bailed out of PVE and went strictly PVP right before fractals became a thing) I kind of agreed. You just... shot and shot and shot.

Good points about the stats, though, and the skill trees really helped to enhance diversity. GW2 was pretty fun.

[Karbuncle]

GW2 was pretty fun for itemization. I can't remember how much it actually mattered in Fractals and such - all I can remember is that if you didn't have enough of that agony resistance, you were boned. I can't remember all of the criticisms of the actual gearing system, I just remember people saying bosses took too long to kill in some dungeons, and, in my experience playing (I bailed out of PVE and went strictly PVP right before fractals became a thing) I kind of agreed. You just... shot and shot and shot.

Good points about the stats, though, and the skill trees really helped to enhance diversity. GW2 was pretty fun.

How long has it been for you? Agony Resistance is still a thing, but thats what Tier 0-9 is for, and hey have dailies now that reward an additional Pristine Relic so its easier to get your starter Ascended Accessories. but gear did matter for every aspect other than Agony (and Agony was only applied by some bosses, not normal enemies too), but it was a "You're dead" if you didnt have enough.

I think the Skill trees and Gear that you can build around certain builds is what makes GW2 feel like it has a buttload of variety (and it rightly does).

[Niiro]

I've never played GW2 but I heard about their vanity system and how.....absolutely perfect it is.

It just makes you look at glamours and wonder wtf they were thinking.

[Destinye]

I've never played GW2 but I heard about their vanity system and how.....absolutely perfect it is.

It just makes you look at glamours and wonder wtf they were thinking.

Per usual half executed like everything else (and definitely not "PS3 limitations") so...

[Lucavi]

How long has it been for you? Agony Resistance is still a thing, but thats what Tier 0-9 is for, and hey have dailies now that reward an additional Pristine Relic so its easier to get your starter Ascended Accessories. but gear did matter for every aspect other than Agony (and Agony was only applied by some bosses, not normal enemies too), but it was a "You're dead" if you didnt have enough.

I think the Skill trees and Gear that you can build around certain builds is what makes GW2 feel like it has a buttload of variety (and it rightly does).

Its been a LOOOOONG time. At least a year and a half. It was right around the beginning of those fractals. Long before all of the storyline campaigns had all of the town destruction. Had a lot of fun building all the different ways, though. Teleport assasins, stun assasins, pet rangers, fire arrow rangers, turrent terror engies, chemical bomb engies.

I'll never forget the first time I used mesmer in PVP. Laughed my ass off at how many people took the bait. I built only to have maximum clones, not really to do damage, so I just kited people and kept them busy through clone spam. Would have never hated how broken utsu was if they had used actual clones to absorb the hits; that'd just be too badass to dislike.

GW2's vanity system is excellent. The only thing I didn't like was the rarity of certain dyes (ABYSSAL, GODDAMMIT!), but yeah, it was one of those things where no company behind it had any real excuse to have a lackluster vanity. Even Diablo 3's vanity system is now badass.

I really, personally believe that a potential future for MMOs is a hybrid between Diablo/PoE/Dungeon Siege and traditional MMOs. The freedom of tackling content, the scaling nature of fights based on party members (and WoW already has flex raiding, so yeah), a good glamor system that helps keep the economy flowing. I'd been asking for a Dungeon Siege-esque MMO ever since I played the original game online. I'd like to see someone break the mold with that.

[Niiro]

Per usual half executed like everything else (and definitely not "PS3 limitations") so...

The worst part is there are already existing systems in the game to copy the GW2 system exactly.

ie. Fishing/sightseeing logs, only 1 bit of storage per entry (yes/no flag), and we already have spiritbonding causing items to become untradeable, just make that the flag for your "glamour log" entry.

And if they're so hung up on glamour prisms to make crafting relevant (ha) there's no reason they can't keep them even with a system like that.

[Sho]

It's easy to say do this and that, it's but about 1000x harder to actually do it, hell it's hard enough to think about it a way that isn't utterly dreamlike. You can't want vast, awesome customization and practical balance at the same time, certainly not immediately or without great thought, work or time.

This is exactly the problem. One of which needs to actually be examined from multiple points of view before continuing.

People love to clamor about the lack of customization in game, but constantly fail to approach the situation the game is in, as well as examine the actual game mechanics, especially when comparing to FFXI.

We can use the battle system for example. In FFXI, the battle system for melee classes rely heavily on building TP, then unleashing the TP as Weapon Skills. The emphasis for DPS is placed on both TP gain as well as WS, hence the upcropping of gear sets that included a mix of haste, double & triple attack, etc. You then have the typical WS set that front loads whatever stat is needed for optimum damage. Compare that to FFXIV, you see that instead of TP building, the system has you consume and arbitrary number of stocked TP to launch Weapon Skills -- the auto attack system is pushed into the background in favor of spamming WSes for DPS. Furthermore, the itemization has been largely made trivial (reach acc cap, push ilvl for largest gains), since there are no gear sets needed, nor gear thats needed to build TP at all. Does that mean that the itemization can't be worked on? Of course not, but it now means that every individual Ability and Weapon Skill would need to be examined throughly for possible modification through gear. They would then have to cross reference with other job's abilities as well to main balance. I could go on forever in comparisons, but thats one glaring one.

Easy to state that it can be done, tough and through in practice.

[Destinye]

Does that mean that the itemization can't be worked on? Of course not, but it now means that every individual Ability and Weapon Skill would need to be examined throughly for possible modification through gear. They would then have to cross reference with other job's abilities as well to main balance. I could go on forever in comparisons, but thats one glaring one.

Easy to state that it can be done, tough and through in practice.

Considering they threw it all out and rebuilt it for ARR..yeah, it's not easy but they're more than capable, especially when they were clearly focusing on Heavensward development. For example yoshi used lofty words about how the battle system will change and stats and so on being reevaulated, it's like: "So all the dev focus is largely on Heavensward? Shit, if you're changing the battle system up a bit now's the perfect time to reevaulate the itemization because you're introducing 3 new jobs as well so your battle team is clearly already on the go and the item team is right behind them."

Taking XI for comparison, XI didn't start seeing better itemization until Zilart (first expansion)..vanilla had some good pieces here and there but it was very much like XIV currently, basic pieces for the most part, then came zilart and the start of specialized armor. It just feels that if they TRULY wanted to they could, since as we seen when Ninja came out...a brief period of uncertainty in terms of balance isn't their concern when everything is already fine tuned towards people being universal as is. Take for instance your Inner Beast lasting slightly longer doesn't break balance at all in the content that matters, if anything it'd help the lesser skilled players maintain their rotations more properly because lord knows yoshi coddles the "newer players" more than anything as is lol.

They reformated 1.23 > ARR in under 1 1/2 and quite frankly, they threw out more than they put in in terms of the battle system so it certainly can be done, as said, and the expansion pack was definitely the perfect time to since most MMOs tend to evolve by then. Maybe they do have something planned during 3.x's life span because no matter how much people say they love XIV..by time 4.0 drops and it's just 2.0 version 2..people won't be pleased. Swimming or not. At least most normal people would hope the game does..more than just being yet another set of 4-8 dungeons, disjointed story quests, fates and a new set of tomestones to collect.

So as 3.x goes on we'll see..because when they mentioned the battle system changing..I was expecting a bit more than stances for everyone.

[Lucavi]

Take for instance your Inner Beast lasting slightly longer doesn't break balance at all in the content that matters, if anything it'd help the lesser skilled players maintain their rotations more properly because lord knows yoshi coddles the "newer players" more than anything as is lol.

Look, if we're going out to petition for "put job enhancements on gear!", I'll make the goddamn posters and signs for us, because I'm all in. Where/how that kind of stuff is obtained, maxmum cap, diminishing return rate, opportunity of the stat, ect.; all that would have to be worked out, but I just don't know how long that would take. I have no idea how big their team is, but if it wouldn't stop the level designers from leveling and the composers from composin', I'm all for it. Maybe kick the fetch-and-bitch-quest-makers out of their role and have them take on adding more stuff-stats to items... that'd be a fitting punishment for those assholes.

I don't think it needs to be done "or ARR is as good as dead in XXX years", no, but I'd like to see more of that. Not so much the "Adaberk >>> everything for the next half decade, bar none" stuff. I also wouldn't want to see a Korean "chance to upgrade from +2% to +3% double attack, but with a 35% chance to permanently destroy your weapon" nonsense system either. Seriously, fuck Korean MMO systems.

[Destinye]

Look, if we're going out to petition for "put job enhancements on gear!", I'll make the goddamn posters and signs for us, because I'm all in. Where/how that kind of stuff is obtained, maxmum cap, diminishing return rate, opportunity of the stat, ect.; all that would have to be worked out, but I just don't know how long that would take. I have no idea how big their team is, but if it wouldn't stop the level designers from leveling and the composers from composin', I'm all for it. Maybe kick the fetch-and-bitch-quest-makers out of their role and have them take on adding more stuff-stats to items... that'd be a fitting punishment for those assholes.

I don't think it needs to be done "or ARR is as good as dead in XXX years", no, but I'd like to see more of that. Not so much the "Adaberk >>> everything for the next half decade, bar none" stuff. I also wouldn't want to see a Korean "chance to upgrade from +2% to +3% double attack, but with a 35% chance to permanently destroy your weapon" nonsense system either. Seriously, fuck Korean MMO systems.

Yeah, that was initially my hope for Alexander - It drops the usual gear for the "normal" mode, then the "augmented" gear for the savage mode which, quite honestly I don't think slightly higher ilvl and ability to dye is as rewarding for doing harder raids lol. Heck I think even WoW give better gear for the higher tiers with some stats no present on the lower tier gear. I do hate the korean system as much as the next person, they have the right idea but horrible implementation.

It's just more along the lines of ARR definitely needs to show evolution because while flying and swimming is cool..it's not enough to use a 'draw factor' like "this expansion is 2.0...BUT WITH SWIMMING!" like...switch it up some lol. Like I said..even for XI it took until the first expansion for it to start changing in general but itemization is the one thing that gained the greatest boost. Then again, people largely seem to be content with "MOAR GLAMOURS!" than anything honestly so eh.

[Sho]

Considering they threw it all out and rebuilt it for ARR..yeah, it's not easy but they're more than capable, especially when they were clearly focusing on Heavensward development. For example yoshi used lofty words about how the battle system will change and stats and so on being reevaulated, it's like: "So all the dev focus is largely on Heavensward? Shit, if you're changing the battle system up a bit now's the perfect time to reevaulate the itemization because you're introducing 3 new jobs as well so your battle team is clearly already on the go and the item team is right behind them."

More like Yoshi threw out lofty words and was promptly brought back down to earth by his team. Given their release schedule, they likely don't have the time right now to re-evaluate the itemization at all. Doesn't mean it won't happen, only that it's not their immediate priority right now. Their priority right now seems to be them rolling out the expansion and making sure every player has a smooth transition from 2.X to 3.0, with the follow up work being done for patch 3.1 (airships, housing, QOL, etc).

Taking XI for comparison, XI didn't start seeing better itemization until Zilart (first expansion)..vanilla had some good pieces here and there but it was very much like XIV currently, basic pieces for the most part, then came zilart and the start of specialized armor.

If we want to talk about true itemization in FFXI, that did not begin until around Treasures of Aht Urhgan, when the team finally started to come to terms with /NIN (Utsusemi), Dual Wield, and most importantly Haste (you see this all with Salvage gear, some Nyzul Options, ZMN). Chains of Promathia saw some itemization, but it was more or less alternative options in slots that already had broken gear (like Swift Belt, Rajas Ring, Sea Torques). The FFXI team rode the broken concept of Dual Wield and Haste from Zilart right into Treasures.

It just feels that if they TRULY wanted to they could, since as we seen when Ninja came out...a brief period of uncertainty in terms of balance isn't their concern when everything is already fine tuned towards people being universal as is. Take for instance your Inner Beast lasting slightly longer doesn't break balance at all in the content that matters, if anything it'd help the lesser skilled players maintain their rotations more properly because lord knows yoshi coddles the "newer players" more than anything as is lol.

They reformated 1.23 > ARR in under 1 1/2 and quite frankly, they threw out more than they put in in terms of the battle system so it certainly can be done, as said, and the expansion pack was definitely the perfect time to since most MMOs tend to evolve by then. Maybe they do have something planned during 3.x's life span because no matter how much people say they love XIV..by time 4.0 drops and it's just 2.0 version 2..people won't be pleased. Swimming or not. At least most normal people would hope the game does..more than just being yet another set of 4-8 dungeons, disjointed story quests, fates and a new set of tomestones to collect.

Given the fact that they released ARR to success and acclaim, no one should be arguing their ability at working on their game. People want to believe that the team has bad ideas or ignorant, I see it more as a team who works based on timing instead. They striped the game from 1.23 to ARR because they wanted a fresh start, but mainly because they wanted to create a game that had a familiar vibe, but a Final Fantasy gloss. Yoshi-P has been pretty shameless in stating that he borrowed heavily from other MMOs in the creation of ARR. "Coddling the players" can and is interchangeable with the content that the team releases, and it was done just so. The game is built like a pyramid, where the top remains difficult, and the base easy. The content is eased after a 1-2 patches and everything on the pyramid is pushed down a tier to allow for new, harder content (for the new iLvl, anyways).

Aside from that, we are all beyond 2.X now, and onto 3.X -- they definitely need to work to move away from what worked in 2.X, so I agree there. However, it's too soon to be claiming a death knell on the game, before the expansion drops and it goes in a few patches. No one knows what type of game will be played by say, patch 3.3 (though we do have an idea of how patches 3.0~3.2 will be). Just given how the game was reborn and into it's first expansion, the arguments that we are having should be had in say, the next 6-8 months from now, because they would be more valid if the game was still maintaining status quo by then.

This ties into Elcura's argument -- people are expecting some extreme change with the onset of the expansion, that just won't happen. It will be gradual, and something that will be well timed by the team. People's vision of "perfect timing" will be expectedly different from the devs.

[Lucavi]

If we want to talk about true itemization in FFXI, that did not begin until around Treasures of Aht Urhgan, when the team finally started to come to terms with /NIN (Utsusemi), Dual Wield, and most importantly Haste (you see this all with Salvage gear, some Nyzul Options, ZMN). Chains of Promathia saw some itemization, but it was more or less alternative options in slots that already had broken gear (like Swift Belt, Rajas Ring, Sea Torques). The FFXI team rode the broken concept of Dual Wield and Haste from Zilart right into Treasures.

The Drg in me has to disagree slightly, but only on the grounds that CoP finally gave Drgs -something- useful in terms of equipment. Barone/Conte, HOMAM, Rajas and Love Torque, not to mention Ace's helm if you could get it; all of those finally gave Drg their first taste of actually having a power-spike that didn't come from bullshit modifiers on WS or broken TP returns. Fuck, its been so long, I can't even remember clearly: Homam was in CoP, wasn't it...? Ugh, its all blurry.

None of this takes away from your points, but for the some of the non-broken classes at the time, CoP was the beginning of feeling like the majority instead of the second-class citizen minority.

I do agree that no sort of system is going to be introduced swiftly. I'm hoping, however, that they'll start teasing some new expanded types of stats as the Xpac continues. Seeing nothing but higher rates of str/vit/acc/parry does put a damper on the sails of raiding if your goal isn't simply to clear shit before everyone else does, and personally, that's not how I get my elitist rocks off.

Its kicking people's ass in pvp.

[Sho]

The Drg in me has to disagree slightly, but only on the grounds that CoP finally gave Drgs -something- useful in terms of equipment. Barone/Conte, HOMAM, Rajas and Love Torque, not to mention Ace's helm if you could get it; all of those finally gave Drg their first taste of actually having a power-spike that didn't come from bullshit modifiers on WS or broken TP returns. Fuck, its been so long, I can't even remember clearly: Homam was in CoP, wasn't it...? Ugh, its all blurry.

None of this takes away from your points, but for the some of the non-broken classes at the time, CoP was the beginning of feeling like the majority instead of the second-class citizen minority.

I do agree that no sort of system is going to be introduced swiftly. I'm hoping, however, that they'll start teasing some new expanded types of stats as the Xpac continues. Seeing nothing but higher rates of str/vit/acc/parry does put a damper on the sails of raiding if your goal isn't simply to clear shit before everyone else does, and personally, that's not how I get my elitist rocks off.

Its kicking people's ass in pvp.

Yeah I agree, it was slight itemization, but to be honest it wasn't much.

You didn't have much at all to chose from at max level as a DRG, Homam being the best you could receive (same for BLU) Ace's Helm was a crapshoot between camping that fucking scorpion, if not camping against others, getting claim, and hoping it dropped. Treasures ushered in Walahra Turbans for all (everyone remembers that day), Askar, as Ares's and Aurum for the poormans DRG. Herja's Fork (lies, Tomoe huehuehue) for all DRGs. Suddenly everyone was on more even ground for DPS, everyone had options.

CoP brought on some gear, but Treasures had the real step up in gear options.

Either way, Sky gear still reigned supreme for some jobs throughout Treasures as well. Abjurations dropping in Einherjar was a testament to that.

I do agree that no sort of system is going to be introduced swiftly. I'm hoping, however, that they'll start teasing some new expanded types of stats as the Xpac continues. Seeing nothing but higher rates of str/vit/acc/parry does put a damper on the sails of raiding if your goal isn't simply to clear shit before everyone else does, and personally, that's not how I get my elitist rocks off.

I'm of mind to believe that this Airship stuff will go hand in hand with expanded gear options. At least I hope it does. I believe the lack of stats is just about everyone's hang up with itemization in the game, hence the previous arguments. No 1 curr about +3 acc or +5 Crit. We want to see shit that buffs our Inner Beast and our Cure IIs, shit like that.

[Eldelphia]

I do think they've really made the glamour system in this game poorly. GW2 was amazing on that front.

[Prothescar]

Even xi has a better glamour system than xiv

[Destinye]

Even xi has a better glamour system than xiv

PS2 limitations.

Seriously though, it actually does even given the limitation of the system.

[Qeomash]

XIV's glamour system would be 10x better if they just combined all the different levels of the glamour prisms into one. Or, hell, combine all the prisms into one that all crafts can make!

[Lucavi]

I've never like over-complicated, contrived, needlessly-involved systems that try to shoehorn other systems instead of standing on their own. Crafting doesn't need to cling to glamor systems in order to feel relevant. If they do, you've failed at crafting, which is something that many games do anyway, but you don't need to make your glamor system a causality of that failure.

Just do what Diablo 3 does: unlock every item's glamor as you acquire the item, and set a price for each item based on the rarity level of the item. Raid and PVP elite gear costs more to glamor than basic quest items, and everything else falls inbetween. Simple, clean, and you set your own prices as a company based on how much cash you want dumped out of the game by the system.

Edit: If you absolutely have to tie the system into some braindead other system, tie it into a vendor like you do with hairstylists. Have a summonable NPC that handles it for us exactly like hair styles, if you don't want people having instant access to glamoring everywhere in the world (you assholes, you).

[Niiro]

XIV's glamour system would be 10x better if they just combined all the different levels of the glamour prisms into one. Or, hell, combine all the prisms into one that all crafts can make!

Which would do nothing to address the need to horde all gear for all time.

[Neon_Sea]

seriously, you should be able to store hologram images of the gear you want in an armory or some shit. Hording a bunch of lvl 1 gear is so damn annoying and pointless.