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  1. #10961
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prothescar View Post
    Uh, no, I've already received a couple of direct responses to my posts implying that BLU is better off to sit on the sideline and wait for BLU procs "because thats all we want you for". Nice try, though. Turning the tables doesn't work when the table wasn't facing me to begin with.

    And I've already annulled the need for math, as I have already specified that I'm not trying to say BLU is a superior DD to MNK. Now you're just stirring the shit barrel for no reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    In the time between your response to Jimsbobsomethin'somethin' and your meltdown post, in which you sarcastically make that remark, there have been only two remarks on the issue. Both posts have only claimed that BLU's damage potential is inferior until you create circumstances that favor the BLU (i.e. gimp competitors). Somewhere and somehow, you've managed to pull "is worth nothing because of inferiority" out of that. None of our posts imply that. I also back Byrthnoth's request for some numbers if you oppose our response.
    The bold portion makes your claim false. If you think I've missed someone's post in that span, feel free to point them out. If you don't disagree with BLU being inferior, then you have no need to to post proof as you have said. That leaves Draylo to put up some numbers. To extend that as an accusation of stirring trouble when 1) I am concurring with an earlier post and 2) you edited your post between me reading your post and posting, shows you're too emotional to carry on this debate.

  2. #10962
    Impossiblu
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    Oh ok, whatever you say chief. I'm not Draylo btw, don't paint me with the same brush. We have similar views, but we are separate people. Direct your posts toward him at him rather than directing them at me, it makes things clearer that way.

    Further, it wasn't in that span, it's been within the entire debate over this topic that's been going on for a few days now across two forums. You're simply being shortsighted.

  3. #10963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yugl View Post
    potential is inferior until you create circumstances that favor the BLU (i.e. gimp competitors).
    And he utterly refuses to believe that when the competitors are superior, a BLU focusing solely on NQ (can turn it into HQ if timed properly) and HQ procs is more beneficial to the group.

  4. #10964
    CoP Dynamis
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    Arguing that BLU shouldn't be DDing is tantamount to advocating double-MAcc sticks and full Teal. I do hope you know that. Or hell, even being naked. Who cares? You're there for procs. It's your only purpose. You all might as well throw out all your BLU gear because it's been a huge waste of time gathering it all.

    Hell let's just not accept any jobs to LSes that aren't WAR BLM COR BRD or MNK.
    COR BRD WAR WAR WAR WAR x2
    BLM BLM BLM BLM WHM WHM
    is obviously the optimal party setup for every situation in the game, why the hell did they add all those useless jobs.

  5. #10965
    Impossiblu
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    Quote Originally Posted by EjinCaitsith View Post
    And he utterly refuses to believe that when the competitors are superior, a BLU focusing solely on NQ (can turn it into HQ if timed properly) and HQ procs is more beneficial to the group.
    And you refuse to believe that a BLU doesn't have to focus solely on procs to proc, which is one of the two major points of my argument.

    Not sure if you realize either, but even if the BLU is concentrating on only procs, good luck timing our myriad of 3~6 second cast time proc spells to get you extra lights, which isn't actually making that proc HQ as HQ procs are subject to the same benefits and even replace your temp items.

  6. #10966
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    Well the difference being that a BLU focusing solely on procs is going to be more beneficial to a group than a blu doing damage.

  7. #10967
    Impossiblu
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    And that right there is precisely why your side of the argument has proven to me that you have no idea what you're on about.

  8. #10968
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkmagi View Post
    Well the difference being that a BLU focusing solely on procs is going to be more beneficial to a group than a blu doing damage.
    This is operating under the assumption that there will ALWAYS be a BLU proc up, and it will ALWAYS be one you have set.

    If there's no proc up you're sitting there with your thumb up your ass contributing nothing. This is not more beneficial to a group than doing damage (ending the fight faster, doing more damage while the mob is procced.)

    If there IS a proc up but it's NOT one you have set, you're in the same boat as the DD BLU, except you're still contributing nothing in the mean-time.

    If there is a proc up and it IS one you have set, then yes, you can start spamming straight away. This is the only time you have an "advantage" over a DD BLU. When you're spent your 30 seconds casting your proc spells, you're back to being vastly more useless than a DD BLU.

    I shouldn't have to spell the conclusion out.

  9. #10969
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    I'm just part of the crowd that finds BLU damage so insignificant in VW that it shouldn't really matter, the only important role that BLU has in VW is procing magic and HQ/EX sword. This is a stupid argument, as both sides will never agree.

  10. #10970
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    The problem is how you see it as so insignificant. And even if it is insignificant, you're only losing more by making that BLU do nothing for 90% of their time in the alliance. And yes, I agree, at this point it's just going over the exact same things for the third time since the debate began. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

  11. #10971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prothescar View Post
    And you refuse to believe that a BLU doesn't have to focus solely on procs to proc, which is one of the two major points of my argument.
    In your own words:
    Quote Originally Posted by Prothescar View Post
    It's an exponential increase in availability of procs to be sure
    Are you really arguing a BLU setting all proc spells will proc just as fast/slower than you when you set DD traits? All we're saying is that when the "heavy" DD in the ally are superior, we want a higher chance at procs/temp refresh over the marginal increase in DD.

  12. #10972
    Impossiblu
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    Quote Originally Posted by EjinCaitsith View Post
    In your own words:


    Are you really arguing a BLU setting all proc spells will proc just as fast/slower than you when you set DD traits? All we're saying is that when the DD in the ally are superior, we want a higher chance at procs/temp refresh over the marginal increase in DD.
    How about you quote the entire sentence instead of contorting it to fit your argument?

    Edit (because it's become such a big deal that everyone seems to be butthurt about edits instead of making double posts): Your higher increase in the chance at a proc is marginal, especially when considering that it's a pool of no less than about 83 different categories that can all be in that same proc slot. When compared to the DD output of a BLU in each and every minute of each and every fight, there's no real comparison. That's all I'm saying here, I really don't see how it's so difficult to understand.

    Again, just going to agree to disagree.

  13. #10973
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prothescar View Post
    How about you quote the entire sentence instead of contorting it to fit your argument?

    Edit (because it's become such a big deal that everyone seems to be butthurt about edits instead of making double posts): Your higher increase in the chance at a proc is marginal, especially when considering that it's a pool of no less than about 83 different categories that can all be in that same proc slot. When compared to the DD output of a BLU in each and every minute of each and every fight, there's no real comparison. That's all I'm saying here, I really don't see how it's so difficult to understand.
    Oh, guess it's acceptable for BLM to not buy all spells, I mean, as long as they have most of them, chances are it won't ever be that proc.

  14. #10974
    Impossiblu
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    Quote Originally Posted by EjinCaitsith View Post
    Oh, guess it's acceptable for BLM to not buy all spells, I mean, as long as they have most of them, chances are it won't ever be that proc.
    Are you seriously comparing a BLM without spells to a BLU who has their spells and simply takes time to have those spells available to cast?

    I was waiting for the grasping at straws to start, when you ran out of ammunition to argue with. I expected it to be a bit more robust though. 5/10

  15. #10975
    CoP Dynamis
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    In the same way that it's fine for a WAR to fulltme WS gear because it's only a marginal increase in damage, yes.

  16. #10976
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    I pose this question though, as I'm genuinely curious: exactly how many procs do you require in a 90 second long fight to complete that fight? You should only need two assuming one is EV, three if you get EV after the two required procs, as 90 seconds is less than the duration of two Fanatic's Drinks and two Champion's Drinks, and well under the duration of any other drink you get out of a proc. EV caps lights, if the EV proc is BLU, then it's going to be procced within 90 seconds. If you can't get EV and you don't end up proccing before the end of the fight, what you have is either bad luck or a bevy of people who "failed" at their job as a "proc job". If both of your HVs, your EV, and 2 of six or more of your NVs are all BLU at the exact same time and you blame the BLU for that, you've got some issues to work out.

  17. #10977
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    Surprisingly, no one has pointed out the convergence between the foregoing argument and that of melee RDMs. There's absolutely nothing wrong with meleeing on RDM, BRD, or even WHM if everything is, and will forever continue to go, perfect. The problem is assuming that everything goes perfectly.

  18. #10978
    Impossiblu
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    you just compared a BLU to a melee BRD, RDM, or WHM.

    Do we want to add a staff-wielding BLM while we're at it? <_<

    The thing about it is, and the whole point is, things don't have to go perfectly for BLU to be a capable DD while still maintaining a relatively ready ability to proc in comparison to a BLU who sits there and does nothing for a majority of their time at the event. It's alarming that you're willing to compare melee BRD, RDM, and WHM with BLU though... as none of those jobs are even an iota as effective at the role as the BLU would be.

  19. #10979
    An exploitable mess of a card game
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    The notion that meleeing is preferable to sitting back and waiting until your primary contribution is necessary is quite beneficial for someone wishing to argue that RDMs should melee. In other words, assuming we accept the italicized as reason for a BLU to melee, what excludes RDM melees from putting forth the same argument?

    Edit: The answer is that there is none. You can't throw them off by making damage arguments since damage is relative and BLU is inferior and because the underlying logic is that your options are status quo with damage and status quo without damage (i.e. "I can perform my role and do damage at the same time").

  20. #10980
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    The two jobs are completely different in their purpose and structure and their expected roles are almost polar opposites? What's making you even come close to comparing a RDM's designated role with a BLU's current most proficient role? I don't understand your reasoning here.

    Edit: You're comparing a RDM, which has not even 10% of the natural DD ability of a BLU and would not be subbing WAR in most situations, to BLU which does have an incredible array of offensive potential before even taking sub job into account. You're ignoring the level of inferiority and again falling back on your buffer of it being an absolutely ideal situation where everything must be perfect. That is not what I am arguing. Again, for the umpteenth time, I am arguing that BLU is not a wasted slot and should not be wasting its potential by doing absolutely nothing for ninety percent or more of its time. Am I not being clear enough? Because it pretty much is not possible to be clearer than that.

    I don't want to hear "IN MY SITUATION WHERE WE HAVE WARs..." again. It's not valid, and I've explained why numerous times at this point. You're either ignoring it or not understanding. Play BLU in VW and play using the playstyle that I've been proposing, and perhaps you might in time. Until then I don't expect you'll ever grasp the concept that I'm putting forward.

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