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  1. #121
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Part IV is up...

    http://kanican.livejournal.com/14209.html

    I think I'm going to stop formal updates for a little while - it's tiring and I kind of just blew a day of my weekend on this . It did turn out to be very very interesting so I don't mind too much. Most of the stuff in this update was from 2 other testers posting their findings. I simply formalized and outlined their findings in a more controlled test. The VE decay rate is -60 VE/second and does not depend on the action used to gain enmity, the level of the person or mob, or the amount of VE currently on the player. This I am sure of. The Enmity gear results are still a bit hazy.

    To Elipse - the enmity gear stuff for negative enmity may still be untested. I didn't see any - enmity gear tests from you and that was what I was basing it on; so the data in the post is actually a bit concocked - I just based them off assumptions. I was hoping you or someone else could verify the - enmity effects as well.

  2. #122
    TOO MUCH MAN
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    In response to the person on the last page who did testing regarding melee damage and other stuff, the the post is too long to quote but:

    If melee damage is multiplied by 13.33 (or some number in that area) and that is applied as CE, wouldnt that mean melee DPSers would cap out CE after roughly 750 damage? That seems an extremely large multiplier but if that is the case you can exprapolate that information to come to a few possible conclusions, given that it is still very possibly to pull aggro with melee damage only.

    Melee damage or swings might produce a certain amount of VE that tanks can possibly keep up with. There are probably some other conclusions, but they escaped me as my mind wandered to wondering about other things related to the whole threat issue.

    If I had to guess before any of this testing was done, I would have said that melee damage would be assigned a modifier and applied to VE, in such a way that there was a certain "break even" DPS number (which would probably be fairly low) where your VE generated would exceed the -60 VE/s decay that I believe Ashira and Kaeko found.

    Anyway good work by all, this is very interested to read, even as a retired player.

  3. #123
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse
    Enmity from melee damage:
    When dealing damage with melee your damage is multiplied by 13.3333333 and added to your E as CE. Its likely more like 66/512 or 67/512. My brain is mush right now. Perhaps someone can put that together for us.

    This was done by first having a player hit the bee with hand to hand. Then player 2 casts dispel to get hate with shadows already up. Player 2 then loses shadows until hate returns to the player that hit the bee. From there player 2 casts cure 1 for 0 until the bee returns.

    This was done over and over with different hit amounts. As with anything there is the possibility of a slight variation due to the small damage sizes. Either way its pretty damn close.
    The modifier you came up with of 13.33 will almost certain depend on the level of the mob you attacked. Based on what some others have tested about cures, the higher level you are, the SMALLER that modifier gets. For cures, if you cure a level 1 player for 30 HP, it grants more hate than curing a level 75 player for 30 HP. Assuming this type of level scaling system applies for damage as well, this would imply that if you do 50 damage to a level 0 mob, it creates more CE than if you did 50 damage to a level 95 mob. I think such a system is likely, because otherwise, I don't really see this making a lot of sense just based on game observations while leveling.

    I'm assuming you used this on a level 0 mob (bumbleebee or tiny mandragora) - so your test would have shown that the modifier is about 13.33 for a level 0 mob. I think a test would have to be done on a high level mob to first show there is a difference depending on mob level, then actually finding that scaling factor.

  4. #124
    Relic Shield
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I think the JP article Elmer posted here a while back said it depended on percentages of total HP. It's worth looking into.

  5. #125
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse
    Enmity from melee damage:
    When dealing damage with melee your damage is multiplied by 13.3333333 and added to your E as CE. Its likely more like 66/512 or 67/512. My brain is mush right now. Perhaps someone can put that together for us.

    This was done by first having a player hit the bee with hand to hand. Then player 2 casts dispel to get hate with shadows already up. Player 2 then loses shadows until hate returns to the player that hit the bee. From there player 2 casts cure 1 for 0 until the bee returns.

    This was done over and over with different hit amounts. As with anything there is the possibility of a slight variation due to the small damage sizes. Either way its pretty damn close.
    The modifier you came up with of 13.33 will almost certain depend on the level of the mob you attacked. Based on what some others have tested about cures, the higher level you are, the SMALLER that modifier gets. For cures, if you cure a level 1 player for 30 HP, it grants more hate than curing a level 75 player for 30 HP. Assuming this type of level scaling system applies for damage as well, this would imply that if you do 50 damage to a level 0 mob, it creates more CE than if you did 50 damage to a level 95 mob. I think such a system is likely, because otherwise, I don't really see this making a lot of sense just based on game observations while leveling.

    I'm assuming you used this on a level 0 mob (bumbleebee or tiny mandragora) - so your test would have shown that the modifier is about 13.33 for a level 0 mob. I think a test would have to be done on a high level mob to first show there is a difference depending on mob level, then actually finding that scaling factor.
    That makes a lot of sense, although it makes defining the amount of threat melee creates extremely difficult and convoluted. Although I wouldn't put it past SE, given that they have never seemed to want players to figure out the math/contributing factors behind the mechanics of the game.

  6. #126

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    - Enmity Gear provides a direct percentage modification of Cumulative Enmity

    Quick question, is there a cap for Enm+/- on gear? Such as 25 or something different.

  7. #127
    CoP Dynamis
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishido
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse
    Enmity from melee damage:
    When dealing damage with melee your damage is multiplied by 13.3333333 and added to your E as CE. Its likely more like 66/512 or 67/512. My brain is mush right now. Perhaps someone can put that together for us.

    This was done by first having a player hit the bee with hand to hand. Then player 2 casts dispel to get hate with shadows already up. Player 2 then loses shadows until hate returns to the player that hit the bee. From there player 2 casts cure 1 for 0 until the bee returns.

    This was done over and over with different hit amounts. As with anything there is the possibility of a slight variation due to the small damage sizes. Either way its pretty damn close.
    The modifier you came up with of 13.33 will almost certain depend on the level of the mob you attacked. Based on what some others have tested about cures, the higher level you are, the SMALLER that modifier gets. For cures, if you cure a level 1 player for 30 HP, it grants more hate than curing a level 75 player for 30 HP. Assuming this type of level scaling system applies for damage as well, this would imply that if you do 50 damage to a level 0 mob, it creates more CE than if you did 50 damage to a level 95 mob. I think such a system is likely, because otherwise, I don't really see this making a lot of sense just based on game observations while leveling.

    I'm assuming you used this on a level 0 mob (bumbleebee or tiny mandragora) - so your test would have shown that the modifier is about 13.33 for a level 0 mob. I think a test would have to be done on a high level mob to first show there is a difference depending on mob level, then actually finding that scaling factor.
    That makes a lot of sense, although it makes defining the amount of threat melee creates extremely difficult and convoluted. Although I wouldn't put it past SE, given that they have never seemed to want players to figure out the math/contributing factors behind the mechanics of the game.

    Its really tough to say. My personal game experience jives very well with whats writen here in terms of melee damage and CE. I love tanking and thats part of what has me so interested here in this. Having capped out your CE hate with as low as 750 damage does in fact sit extremely well with my "eye ball" observation of hate mechanics. While no testing has been done with different levels of characters I don't believe the multiplier would change.

    I think CE was only meant to be a stable base of hate and that most actions will revolve around VE. Think about it from in game experience. Blm's sleep a mob a few times building up some CE. Melee comes up swings once or twice and its off the blm. Why? If the multiplier was lower the mob would chase that blm for a long time but it doesn't? Tank runs in, vokes/flashs with +34 enmity gear right at the start of a fight then a melee comes in WS's the mob. Why does it turn off the tank so fast? Unless that tank is dealing some decent damage or getting some CE or other VE in he'll lose that hate battle.

    The multiplier very likely sits and works the same way with magic damage. That was something we planned to test yesterday before we got too tired. However it again sits well with my in game observations. Tank is ripping it up with hate, new mage comes in rips off a huge nuke and it turns to him for a few seconds and goes back to the tank. I'll answer it below cause someone asked but it belongs here too. Melee damage also has VE associated with it. I suspect the same goes for magic damage, that it has a large CE componant but also a large VE.

    I don't want to say something lacking testing is in fact perfect, I'm only saying that my observation of the games mechanics sit well and support a high number of CE being generated from melee damage. I think people are looking at sleep II then looking at the damage multiplier and thinking "No way" that doesn't seem right. I think it does. If I can grab someone from my LS today, i'll run over to jeuno and run a test there to see what happens on a higher level mob. Then we can just see how it goes.

    Askaninja time.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Valyana
    So +/-Enmity gear doesn't affect the rate of decay of VE?
    Hasn't been tested yet to my knowledge. Guess is that it does not, don't take that for anything until its tested.


    Quote Originally Posted by Khrno
    Regarding Enmity caused by melee damage (or by any actions in general), where do -Enmity merits (and gear) come in to action? Are they actually a percentage decrease (or increase if + merits/gear) on the CE/VE produced by any given action?
    Just to throw this out there. Enmity merits and gear act the exact same way. We tested this on CE related spells. As for the exact equation for how + and - enmity affects melee damage, I don't know how it fits in. I'm certain it applies in the exact same +- fashion that it does to spells and abilities I just don't know how to write out the formula. Please note melee damage does have VE associated with it, this I was able to test. How much it is? I have no idea. I just know it exists.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrObvious
    Enmity gear with sentinel active doesn't effect ve either then?
    After playing with sentinal my belief is that enmity caps at 100 and that sentinal gives you a 100 enmity bonus. Therefore all enmity gear worn during this time has no effect. It is confirmed through testing that CE is not effected by +enmity gear while sentinal is active however please note that no testing has been done to confirm its affect on VE (that I know of) it is merely a guess based on observation.



    One final note, I'd really like to thank Kaeko and Ashira for breaking the enmity puzzle wide open. As a tank, enmity has always been a hot topic and something I'd love to explore. Except there was no way to really explore it until now. So Kaeko and Ashira, I know you're drained and a little tired from all this testing. Just wanted you to know that it was appreciated and I hope when you get your energy levels back up you'll plug back into a few more formal posts on kaekos blog and perhaps the BGwiki page for enmity. Awesome work!

  8. #128
    CoP Dynamis
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khrno
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    - Enmity Gear provides a direct percentage modification of Cumulative Enmity

    Quick question, is there a cap for Enm+/- on gear? Such as 25 or something different.
    I sorta answered it above that I think the cap is 100 but just to give you more info. We tested up to +34 enmity in gear and it maintained full effect. Practically speaking, you're not going to hit that much higher in a tanking set up anyway. I think there was a ninja in my LS saying he has over +50 enmity but... honestly he could have said 45 for all I remember. If he does have that high +enmity gear, I'll pull him aside for some testing later.

  9. #129
    CoP Dynamis
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I'll respond to my own post and say I'm wrong!

    I didn't have much time but Ciz pulled me out to do some tests. On wasps in rollanberry fields the number was closer to 3.8x damage for CE. I didn't get an exact number but its clear there is a variable in there. Monster level and weapon used are possibles. Jobs could be possible too. We used a ninja to hit today instead of a rdm.

    Anyway there you have it, it doesn't scale across all mobs

  10. #130

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse
    Its really tough to say. My personal game experience jives very well with whats writen here in terms of melee damage and CE. I love tanking and thats part of what has me so interested here in this. Having capped out your CE hate with as low as 750 damage does in fact sit extremely well with my "eye ball" observation of hate mechanics.
    If 750 damage capped ce, then one would pretty much expect every single ws reaching this to pull hate. In practice, this does not happen. I have seen 1000+ ws fail to pull hate at wyrms, using tanks that typically do not cap hate(nin/war pld/war).

    Tank is ripping it up with hate, new mage comes in rips off a huge nuke and it turns to him for a few seconds and goes back to the tank.
    Then magic must have a different multiplier, or the number is incorrect for hnm type fights, because 750~ in nukes typically does not pull hate off a tank. Blms are not being drawn-in left and right at jol.

    edit: lol nevermind.

  11. #131

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elipse
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyana
    So +/-Enmity gear doesn't affect the rate of decay of VE?
    Hasn't been tested yet to my knowledge. Guess is that it does not, don't take that for anything until its tested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khrno
    Regarding Enmity caused by melee damage (or by any actions in general), where do -Enmity merits (and gear) come in to action? Are they actually a percentage decrease (or increase if + merits/gear) on the CE/VE produced by any given action?
    Just to throw this out there. Enmity merits and gear act the exact same way. We tested this on CE related spells. As for the exact equation for how + and - enmity affects melee damage, I don't know how it fits in. I'm certain it applies in the exact same +- fashion that it does to spells and abilities I just don't know how to write out the formula. Please note melee damage does have VE associated with it, this I was able to test. How much it is? I have no idea. I just know it exists.
    There has been a kensho done, which I posted on the Emnity+/- thread a while ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myself
    There is a post on the Kensho 14 thread (121-124 VZZxrzHz) that details how emnity affects hate. Basically, >>121 tested that emnity does affect hate value, but the decrease in hate is constant regardless of your emnity. There is a loss of 65-75 HP cured worth of hate every 5 second that was constant, but the time it took the other char to gain hate by voke was different (210 hp - 15 sec for 0 emn, 235 hp - 15 sec for -3 emn).

    I believe the commonly accepted hate ramp for provoke is 28 seconds with 0 emn. There is a hard floor of -50 emnity in which hate will drop out after 14 seconds. (http://ness.cside2.com/blog/archives/2007/0115_1501.php)
    Given the conclusion that there is roughly a hate loss of 12.5hp/sec cured, and the 60 VE number as per Kaeko's post, then I can conclude that "Cure hate" is worth 5VE/hp. This is a static value. The only thing Emnity does is affect the initial VE value that is multipled strictly by the Emn% of the caster. Oh and the original kensho was about CHR, >>121 tested with -emnity (-3 from Tamas) which did have an effect and CHR+16 which had absolutely no effect on VE decay or initial hate.

    The link above is inaccessible to me atm, but basically voke with different emnity level, will affect how long the mob "sticks" to the person voking. With 0 Emnity, the base value is 28 seconds, which again gets multipled by the emnity of the voker.

  12. #132

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Also, regarding the Emnity table, I believe there is some error.

    Testing done by http://blog.livedoor.jp/bozecaitsith/ar ... 01467.html suggests that the current table is suffering from a misinterpretation of data. Basically, the Bald RDM suggests that in order of "hateness" of spells goes Blind < Sleep < Dispel < Bind < Sleep II for CE.

    The relevant testing was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bald RDM
    ???? < ????
    ???? < ??????????????????????????????????????????
    ???? > ?????
    ???? < ?????
    ???? < ????????????????????????????????????????
    ????? < ????II
    ???? < ????II
    ???? < ????II
    Blind < Bind
    Blind < Dispel (When Blind landed, the caster had emnity, but it soon switch to Dispel caster)
    Bind > Dispel
    Sleep < Dispel
    Blind < Sleep (When Blind landed....)
    Dispel < Sleep II
    Bind < Sleep II
    Blind < Sleep II

    However, the table claims both Dispel and Sleep are 320CE, which conflicts with what was kenshoed by the blog. And Sleep II did not have the problem of "switching target" even when Blind has 640VE versus 480CE for Sleep II.

  13. #133
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Well, I don't believe that blog and/or that blog is obsoleted. He said something about relative enmity from spells but you cannot compare CE and VE without time factor. I also believe that he doesn't put any time factor in the calculation.

    Blind has 640VE, Dispel has 320CE
    Blind < Dispel is TRUE if time passes for 6 seconds or more.
    Blind < Dispel is FALSE if time passes for less than 6 seconds.

    So that blog's testing cases are not completely controlled, we can't trust that information.

  14. #134

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by eva00r
    Well, I don't believe that blog and/or that blog is obsoleted. He said something about relative enmity from spells but you cannot compare CE and VE without time factor. I also believe that he doesn't put any time factor in the calculation.

    Blind has 640VE, Dispel has 320CE
    Blind < Dispel is TRUE if time passes for 6 seconds or more.
    Blind < Dispel is FALSE if time passes for less than 6 seconds.

    So that blog's testing cases are not completely controlled, we can't trust that information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bald RDM
    ???????????????????????????????
    ???????????????????????????
    ???????????????????????????????????????????
    Ghetto translate:
    We have two RDM casting at the same time
    Whoever has hate afterwards cast the larger hate spell
    We take into consideration different casting times, so we vary the cast time by a bit and perform several tests each.

    It was a proper kensho.

  15. #135
    Sea Torques
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Yeah, but the "We take into consideration different casting times, so we vary the cast time by a bit and perform several tests each" is still unclear.

    Deeper details are needed, at least as much as kaeko's 6th test cases. Who do what, at what time, in what order and how? In each case they must reset everything, find new monster and test again.

  16. #136
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whatinthe
    Quote Originally Posted by eva00r
    Well, I don't believe that blog and/or that blog is obsoleted. He said something about relative enmity from spells but you cannot compare CE and VE without time factor. I also believe that he doesn't put any time factor in the calculation.

    Blind has 640VE, Dispel has 320CE
    Blind < Dispel is TRUE if time passes for 6 seconds or more.
    Blind < Dispel is FALSE if time passes for less than 6 seconds.

    So that blog's testing cases are not completely controlled, we can't trust that information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bald RDM
    ???????????????????????????????
    ???????????????????????????
    ???????????????????????????????????????????
    Ghetto translate:
    We have two RDM casting at the same time
    Whoever has hate afterwards cast the larger hate spell
    We take into consideration different casting times, so we vary the cast time by a bit and perform several tests each.

    It was a proper kensho.
    I'm confident that they did something wrong and we were right in this. This is because this is SO simple to actually verify on your own. Sleep and Dispel carry the same CE - I have absolutely no doubt in this. Assuming you get a 3rd party to pull, have 1 cast sleep, other cast DIspel, wait 20 seconds, have the player without hate cast cure >> he will take hate. Have other cast cure >> hate will bounce. They are clearly equal in terms of CE.

    The key is the building up of controls and basic knowledge in order to establish controls. That is why the first enmity post is so boring - it establishes very basic controls used in future tests. If I had not done so, there would always be conflicting stories. The fact that Dispel and Sleep do carry the same CE, and possibly even the same VE, the order of who casts matters due to the "tie rule". They say "the same time", but you can't actually cast 2 things at the exact same time... Someone had to cast it first and the other second. The second will always take hate assuming sleep and dispel carry the same VE as well.

    The fact that this post's explanation does not involve a dual hate system (one including VE and CE as seperate entities) means it was probably designed with an oversimplified system in mind. How it actually appears to work is not all that intuitive in my opinion... if you run something like this without knowing these factors you are going to introduce a lot of error.

    What there a 3rd party puller involved? If not, the results are surely skewed.
    Does it document who ACTUALLY cast first? "The same time" is not accurate and would not account for "ties".
    When are they documenting who has hate? (I'm assuing directly after spell) - in this case they are looking at TE, not CE
    How much time is varied? We know the decay rate at this point - the timing matters quite a bit but these tests don't control

    Again, this is a really easy to test yourself thing. A lot of these values on the table are things I wouldn't have guessed - for instance, that Sleep 2 generates over twice the hate of Sleepga 2. We tested them ourselves in multiple ways, so I'm completely sure of at least the ones Ashira and I personally did.

  17. #137
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Sleep < Dispel
    1. Both are RDM
    2. Both casts at the same time
    3. Both spells have exactly the same CE
    4. Sleep's casting time is 2.5 sec
    5. Dispel's casting time is 3 sec

    so Sleep will land before Dispel, according to tie rule the one landed after will take hate - that solves "Sleep < Dispel" in this case.

    QFT.

  18. #138
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Going to disect each observation from the JP blog post. I am making the assumption that they would time their casts as closely as possible together (but you can't really be at the exact same time...) and document who has hate directly after the casts.

    Blind < Bind
    The TE of Bind is greater than the TE of Blind

    Blind < Dispel (When Blind landed, the caster had emnity, but it soon switch to Dispel caster)
    The TE of Blind directly after cast is greater than the TE of Dispel. But Blind has a smaller CE so Dispel eventually wins

    Bind > Dispel
    The TE of Bind is greater than the TE of Dispel

    Sleep < Dispel
    CE for Sleep and Dispel is the same, so Dispel either has a larger VE than Sleep, or they have the same VE as well, but DIspel was cast second, hence "wins out" by the tie rule

    Blind < Sleep (When Blind landed....)
    Same as the DIspel vs. Blind Test

    Dispel < Sleep II
    Sleep 2 has a higher TE than Dispel. It certainly has a higher CE anyways

    Bind < Sleep II
    Sleep 2 has a higher TE than Bind

    Blind < Sleep II
    Sleep 2 has a higher TE than Blind

    The key I think is I'm assuming that they document who has hate directly after the cast. This means they are looking strictly at TE (VE+CE), not CE. Also, they cast "at the same time", meaning 1 spell is not given time to decay it's VE - again this shows that they are testing TE, not CE. I don't think the data is inconsistant for the most part.

  19. #139
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by eva00r
    Sleep < Dispel
    1. Both are RDM
    2. Both casts at the same time
    3. Both spells have exactly the same CE
    4. Sleep's casting time is 2.5 sec
    5. Dispel's casting time is 3 sec

    so Sleep will land before Dispel, according to tie rule the one landed after will take hate - that solves "Sleep < Dispel" in this case.

    QFT.
    Not exactly. The tests are looking at TE, not CE. There is a VE component to both of these spells. The spell with higher VE will be the one that maintains hate after infinite time. Now if the VE was the same as well for both sleep and dispel, then yes, it would come down to strictly who cast first.

  20. #140
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I'm a melee here, and I notice that the percent of the mobs HP that I do is directly related to my hate, using a 2h weapon, it's easy for me to whack the mob with two big crits and just get chewed on and chewed on, WS damage makes it even more noticeable.

    Wonder how feasible it would be to work out the % of the mobs HP you do in Damage= How much CE/VE?

    It doesn't feel like it's a set modifier, as was posted, but the HP % you do(and hp% cured) seems to be a pretty consistent thing.

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