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  1. #141

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Part IV is up...

    http://kanican.livejournal.com/14209.html

    I think I'm going to stop formal updates for a little while - it's tiring and I kind of just blew a day of my weekend on this :shock: . It did turn out to be very very interesting so I don't mind too much. Most of the stuff in this update was from 2 other testers posting their findings. I simply formalized and outlined their findings in a more controlled test. The VE decay rate is -60 VE/second and does not depend on the action used to gain enmity, the level of the person or mob, or the amount of VE currently on the player. This I am sure of. The Enmity gear results are still a bit hazy.

    To Elipse - the enmity gear stuff for negative enmity may still be untested. I didn't see any - enmity gear tests from you and that was what I was basing it on; so the data in the post is actually a bit concocked - I just based them off assumptions. I was hoping you or someone else could verify the - enmity effects as well.
    Please don't get burnt out on this, the advantages that could come from having a finished enmity formula could seriously change the way people play the game. Whenever the cure/damage formulas are figured out, there is basically no reason some sort of "enmity meter" plugin couldn't be made. Naturally it could only keep track of your own enmity (you can't know how many enmity merits someone in your party has, what enmity gear they have on, et cetera.) but there's no reason it can't keep track of your own. I would think something like a number above the HP% TParty has. Just imagine:

    (Tank) I have 4885 kaekos at the moment, BLMs, don't nuke above 3000 kaekos.

    BLM sees they have 1882 kaekos of hate on the mob, and nuke until their kaeko level approaches under three thousand.

    If and when this happens, I'll make sure it's named KaekoMeter.dll.

  2. #142
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Very interesting information, quite a cool read. Kudos to all the testing done and making it so readily available.


    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    Just imagine:

    (Tank) I have 4885 kaekos at the moment, BLMs, don't nuke above 3000 kaekos.

    BLM sees they have 1882 kaekos of hate on the mob, and nuke until their kaeko level approaches under three thousand.
    Is it bad my first thought after this was "What does the scouter say about his kaeko level?"

  3. #143
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Part IV is up...

    http://kanican.livejournal.com/14209.html

    I think I'm going to stop formal updates for a little while - it's tiring and I kind of just blew a day of my weekend on this . It did turn out to be very very interesting so I don't mind too much. Most of the stuff in this update was from 2 other testers posting their findings. I simply formalized and outlined their findings in a more controlled test. The VE decay rate is -60 VE/second and does not depend on the action used to gain enmity, the level of the person or mob, or the amount of VE currently on the player. This I am sure of. The Enmity gear results are still a bit hazy.

    To Elipse - the enmity gear stuff for negative enmity may still be untested. I didn't see any - enmity gear tests from you and that was what I was basing it on; so the data in the post is actually a bit concocked - I just based them off assumptions. I was hoping you or someone else could verify the - enmity effects as well.
    Please don't get burnt out on this, the advantages that could come from having a finished enmity formula could seriously change the way people play the game. Whenever the cure/damage formulas are figured out, there is basically no reason some sort of "enmity meter" plugin couldn't be made. Naturally it could only keep track of your own enmity (you can't know how many enmity merits someone in your party has, what enmity gear they have on, et cetera.) but there's no reason it can't keep track of your own. I would think something like a number above the HP% TParty has. Just imagine:

    (Tank) I have 4885 kaekos at the moment, BLMs, don't nuke above 3000 kaekos.

    BLM sees they have 1882 kaekos of hate on the mob, and nuke until their kaeko level approaches under three thousand.

    If and when this happens, I'll make sure it's named KaekoMeter.dll.
    Oh the irony if the cap was 9000 instead of 10000

  4. #144
    TOO MUCH MAN
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    Please don't get burnt out on this, the advantages that could come from having a finished enmity formula could seriously change the way people play the game. Whenever the cure/damage formulas are figured out, there is basically no reason some sort of "enmity meter" plugin couldn't be made. Naturally it could only keep track of your own enmity (you can't know how many enmity merits someone in your party has, what enmity gear they have on, et cetera.) but there's no reason it can't keep track of your own. I would think something like a number above the HP% TParty has. Just imagine:

    (Tank) I have 4885 kaekos at the moment, BLMs, don't nuke above 3000 kaekos.

    BLM sees they have 1882 kaekos of hate on the mob, and nuke until their kaeko level approaches under three thousand.

    If and when this happens, I'll make sure it's named KaekoMeter.dll.
    I feel retarded for not thinking about this earlier, since it's how threat meters work in WoW. I'm not sure how easy it would be, but having an addon just calculate your own threat and broadcast that information to other users would befinately be the easiest way. I'm sure it could be programmed with an input command to change the +/- enmity it calculates you as having, which would be an easy addition to people's gear swap macros.

  5. #145

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishido
    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    Please don't get burnt out on this, the advantages that could come from having a finished enmity formula could seriously change the way people play the game. Whenever the cure/damage formulas are figured out, there is basically no reason some sort of "enmity meter" plugin couldn't be made. Naturally it could only keep track of your own enmity (you can't know how many enmity merits someone in your party has, what enmity gear they have on, et cetera.) but there's no reason it can't keep track of your own. I would think something like a number above the HP% TParty has. Just imagine:

    (Tank) I have 4885 kaekos at the moment, BLMs, don't nuke above 3000 kaekos.

    BLM sees they have 1882 kaekos of hate on the mob, and nuke until their kaeko level approaches under three thousand.

    If and when this happens, I'll make sure it's named KaekoMeter.dll.
    I feel retarded for not thinking about this earlier, since it's how threat meters work in WoW. I'm not sure how easy it would be, but having an addon just calculate your own threat and broadcast that information to other users would befinately be the easiest way. I'm sure it could be programmed with an input command to change the +/- enmity it calculates you as having, which would be an easy addition to people's gear swap macros.
    That wouldn't be necessary, the plugin can just get the gear you have on and figure out your enmity bonus from that. It'd also have to factor in Sentinel merits and those weird Bard songs. Possibly hate reset TP moves, too.

  6. #146

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    (Tank) I have 4885 kaekos at the moment, BLMs, don't nuke above 3000 kaekos.
    I don't think this will be possible. The test done by Kaeko/Ashira so far has dealt with mobs dealing 0 damage to each party member. It is said on the JP wiki that CE (or their term for it, ?????) declines when you are hit by the mob for damage - furthermore, the amount of emnity lost is directly correlated to the amount of health you have. So not only with this plug-in have to deal with whether a spell lands or not (and according to >>121 hate for a "no effect" is less than that which actually lands), it also has to take into account damage dealt, and how much total hp was the target at the time of spell, not to mention stuff like hate reset, mob moves, mob spells, and aoe spell/moves.

    As for Kaeko, I didn't realize that you did not get a chance to test the VE portions of the spell I mentioned. I took a look at it once more, and it is abundantly clear that the VE is not listed on major spells like Flash and Stun, which should definately have higher TE than 180.

    I would like to have the VE value for Provoke down to an exact number. From your blog, it seems that you were using a stopwatch and came to the conclusion that "it's around 30 sec". Although it nearly matches the JP observation of 28 second, once this value is down solid, one can figure out the VE value for almost any spell or move by using two accounts by one person.

    The JP method for determining the Provoke VE cooldown was to have person A voke the mob, wait at least 30 seconds, then have person B voke the mob. Then they time the number of seconds required for the mob to "turn back" to person A, and used /wait to do so. Since the above link showed that at -50%+ emnity, it took 14 seconds to do so, plus the 28 seconds figure wildely circulating, I think that you might be off on the number a bit. Maybe you can get the "initial hate" number out too, whether it's a multiple or not, so the following can be possible.

    >>121's conculsion was that "provoke hate is worth an initial silence, then a 210-220 Cure IV cast 8 seconds later". The macro used was

    (WHM/BST)
    /ma Silence <t>
    /wait 8
    /ma "Cure IV" <me>

    (Lv 5 WAR/nosub)
    /wait 15
    /ja Provoke <t>

    He claimed that by pressing these macros simultaneously, the voke occured right after the Cure spell fired. So from the 5VE/hp cured figure, there's at least 1050 to 1100 VE involved, plus the CE from the initial Silence (+initial hate), and the CE from Cure IV as well. He then went on to adjust his own HP further and adjust the mule's voke timer, and proved the 12.5hp/sec worth of linear hate loss.

    When he put on -emn gear (Tamas Ring), it took 235hp for the mule to get target at 15 seconds. This puts his VE hate from Cure IV at 1139 plus the stuff I listed above. The reason he did this as WHM/BST was to be able to cast silence on worms, and use charm/release to reset hate without resorting to killing the mob. Once the CE/VE for the initial silence and voke is down pat, any WHM or RDM with a 30+ BST sub could do this along with a mule acct without worrying about the level of the mob or getting the mule acct killed.

    And the Bald RDM kensho did involve the use of a third person (WHM) to get initial hate. He also mentioned that as RDM tank, he had no problems with hate just by using Blind, so his conclusions were that even though VE is high for Blind, there is some CE although not as high as other spells. The only thing I can think of that would cause this inconsistency with your 1CE Blind test is that since the Lv0 mob was already at the floor of mob accuracy against a Lv75, the Blind didn't actually have an effect since internally there was 0 effective change to the mob's status with the exception that it was "blinded". This would be consistent with less hate gained on a "no effect" spell.

  7. #147
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    I haven't been this excited about a thread on BG for a long time, i just wanna thank you Kaeko and Ashira for all your hard work.. I have already implemented using what i learnt from your blogs. I duo Dahaks with my friend for fun as RDM/BLM (me) BLM/WHM and being able to spam Dispel knowing i can try keep some form hate is great.

    Most good players have always had a feel for how Emnity worked and we all have little things that thinks should be tested. I am greatly interested in finding out how much Emnity both (VE and CE) does /heal causes and whether this actually builds over time as you tick. Any suggestions on how to test this?

    I have also always had a feeling that wearing -emnity gear (this could just be pure wishful thinking though) made your VE hate decay that little bit quicker.. any way of testing this also?

    I used to be good at this kind of shit at school but years of drug/alcohol abuse + onset of early senility made my lateral thinking completely go down the drain lol

    There is no shadow of a doubt this will change the face of FFXI gameplay forever and distinguish the nubs from the non nubs.

    With this in mind Is there a way to keep this away from otherwiki somehow <.<?

  8. #148

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whatinthe
    The only thing I can think of that would cause this inconsistency with your 1CE Blind test is that since the Lv0 mob was already at the floor of mob accuracy against a Lv75, the Blind didn't actually have an effect since internally there was 0 effective change to the mob's status with the exception that it was "blinded". This would be consistent with less hate gained on a "no effect" spell.
    Err, this was tested somewhere? So basically you're saying if person a uses flash, then person b uses flash, person b will not pull hate because it will have no effect and not have full enmity?

    This debate is easily ended, go try it on some weak easys, like robber crabs with stoneskin/phalanx/signet. I think you're also forgetting/ignoring that by spamming blind, you have a net hate gain whether or not the spell itself has any substantial ce, the ve/ce listed for blind support that.

  9. #149
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    There are many inconsistancies with that JP blog article and our current testing. This is why I felt it was necessary to detail how our tests were done very precisely.

    Blind -
    This spell has precisely 1 CE involved. This is an extremely basic thing to test and I don't think here can be all that much debate that it is higher or lower than 1 CE.

    Spells that have "no effect" -
    This is also very easily tested as someone stated earlier. For things like stun, flash, dispel, blind, etc. they all grant the same amount of hate whether they land, are resisted, or have no effect. Very simple thing to test.

    HP being a factor in Cures and Damage -
    We have not performed these tests, however, someone has told me about his tests (the person who wrote the "enmity numbers" article on old wiki). His early conclusions where that it is NOT the HP of the mob, although that would be the most obvious factor - it is actually the LEVEL of the person or mob the action is dealt on. This makes more sense in practice. If you thunder 4 an aura statue for 1000 HP or 25% of it's HP at the start of a fight, it's going to take hate over something like a Provoke just cast. If you thunder 4 Fafnir for 1000 HP for about 1% of it's HP, it will also go after you if you do this too early. It is not the HP, but the level that determines this I think. This will have to be proven, but it makes more sense to me at least.

    Regarding the testing of Volatile Enmity -
    There are 2 tests required for this that I outlined in post 4. The "stopwatch" test only ballpark's the range of VE values. It is not accurate enough to find the exact value. Another test which is outlined there gives you the accurate value, but you must have a ballpark range of where the VE is in order to apply it in a reaosnable amount of time. The VE values there are accurate to within 5 VE I think - everything else so far has been a multiple of 5 and I have no reason to believe these VE values aren't. I can rerun this, but the method should be sound and controlled.

  10. #150

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    HP being a factor in Cures and Damage -
    We have not performed these tests, however, someone has told me about his tests (the person who wrote the "enmity numbers" article on old wiki). His early conclusions where that it is NOT the HP of the mob, although that would be the most obvious factor - it is actually the LEVEL of the person or mob the action is dealt on. This makes more sense in practice. If you thunder 4 an aura statue for 1000 HP or 25% of it's HP at the start of a fight, it's going to take hate over something like a Provoke just cast. If you thunder 4 Fafnir for 1000 HP for about 1% of it's HP, it will also go after you if you do this too early. It is not the HP, but the level that determines this I think. This will have to be proven, but it makes more sense to me at least.
    Let me know if you need the exact level of a mob (impossible to gauge or not.) I know it's possible to calculate the level based on the EXP received, but it should be noted that the check response packet also responds with the exact level of the mob in question.

  11. #151
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    HP being a factor in Cures and Damage -
    We have not performed these tests, however, someone has told me about his tests (the person who wrote the "enmity numbers" article on old wiki). His early conclusions where that it is NOT the HP of the mob, although that would be the most obvious factor - it is actually the LEVEL of the person or mob the action is dealt on. This makes more sense in practice. If you thunder 4 an aura statue for 1000 HP or 25% of it's HP at the start of a fight, it's going to take hate over something like a Provoke just cast. If you thunder 4 Fafnir for 1000 HP for about 1% of it's HP, it will also go after you if you do this too early. It is not the HP, but the level that determines this I think. This will have to be proven, but it makes more sense to me at least.
    Let me know if you need the exact level of a mob (impossible to gauge or not.) I know it's possible to calculate the level based on the EXP received, but it should be noted that the check response packet also responds with the exact level of the mob in question.
    I think a plugin would be extremely useful and/or just pretty cool to design. Ashi and I have to finish a lot more tests that go over just how things work in general (besides all the individual moves), but here are the things I perceive to be the biggest challenges with designing a plugin...

    1) Knowing the level of the mob (possibly factors in the equation of damage towards an enemy)
    2) Knowing the level of your party members (factors into the equation of curing allies)
    3) Knowing the Enmity Enhancement of your own gear at all times, and others as well
    4) Knowing the distance between every party member, including yourself, to the mob in question (CE decay)

    I don't really know how much of that if any you can determine just based on packets or whatnot. I think for now, we just need to learn how complicated the system really is. I know a lot of people here seem to want to jump the gun and get into damage formulas, but those are much more complicated than the stuff we've been doing so far and we're just not ready to do those in an accurate fashion right now.

  12. #152
    WarkeDChocobo
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    HP being a factor in Cures and Damage -
    We have not performed these tests, however, someone has told me about his tests (the person who wrote the "enmity numbers" article on old wiki). His early conclusions where that it is NOT the HP of the mob, although that would be the most obvious factor - it is actually the LEVEL of the person or mob the action is dealt on. This makes more sense in practice. If you thunder 4 an aura statue for 1000 HP or 25% of it's HP at the start of a fight, it's going to take hate over something like a Provoke just cast. If you thunder 4 Fafnir for 1000 HP for about 1% of it's HP, it will also go after you if you do this too early. It is not the HP, but the level that determines this I think. This will have to be proven, but it makes more sense to me at least.
    Let me know if you need the exact level of a mob (impossible to gauge or not.) I know it's possible to calculate the level based on the EXP received, but it should be noted that the check response packet also responds with the exact level of the mob in question.
    I think a plugin would be extremely useful and/or just pretty cool to design. Ashi and I have to finish a lot more tests that go over just how things work in general (besides all the individual moves), but here are the things I perceive to be the biggest challenges with designing a plugin...

    1) Knowing the level of the mob (possibly factors in the equation of damage towards an enemy)
    2) Knowing the level of your party members (factors into the equation of curing allies)
    3) Knowing the Enmity Enhancement of your own gear at all times, and others as well
    4) Knowing the distance between every party member, including yourself, to the mob in question (CE decay)I don't really know how much of that if any you can determine just based on packets or whatnot. I think for now, we just need to learn how complicated the system really is. I know a lot of people here seem to want to jump the gun and get into damage formulas, but those are much more complicated than the stuff we've been doing so far and we're just not ready to do those in an accurate fashion right now.

    So greater distance = higher decay rate?

  13. #153
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    There is supposedly a threshold at which any action you perform will not add towards your enmity

  14. #154

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    1) Knowing the level of the mob (possibly factors in the equation of damage towards an enemy)
    2) Knowing the level of your party members (factors into the equation of curing allies)
    3) Knowing the Enmity Enhancement of your own gear at all times, and others as well
    4) Knowing the distance between every party member, including yourself, to the mob in question (CE decay)
    Bolded the only one that would be an issue. In order to get the level of your allies, you'd have to check them. Not only is this invasive (I don't think anyone wants to run a plugin that repeatedly checks people without asking them first) but often times your allies are /anon. I really hope this isn't needed, I've always been trying to think of a way around this, and never come up with anything.

  15. #155
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    1) Knowing the level of the mob (possibly factors in the equation of damage towards an enemy)
    2) Knowing the level of your party members (factors into the equation of curing allies)
    3) Knowing the Enmity Enhancement of your own gear at all times, and others as well
    4) Knowing the distance between every party member, including yourself, to the mob in question (CE decay)
    Bolded the only one that would be an issue. In order to get the level of your allies, you'd have to check them. Not only is this invasive (I don't think anyone wants to run a plugin that repeatedly checks people without asking them first) but often times your allies are /anon. I really hope this isn't needed, I've always been trying to think of a way around this, and never come up with anything.
    It would probably be a bitch, but is it possible to get it out of /sea? If you can you may be able to suppress the /sea bar from coming up and get the information that way... it seems rather slow and ugly though. I don't know the mechanics behind it.

  16. #156

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubbers
    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    1) Knowing the level of the mob (possibly factors in the equation of damage towards an enemy)
    2) Knowing the level of your party members (factors into the equation of curing allies)
    3) Knowing the Enmity Enhancement of your own gear at all times, and others as well
    4) Knowing the distance between every party member, including yourself, to the mob in question (CE decay)
    Bolded the only one that would be an issue. In order to get the level of your allies, you'd have to check them. Not only is this invasive (I don't think anyone wants to run a plugin that repeatedly checks people without asking them first) but often times your allies are /anon. I really hope this isn't needed, I've always been trying to think of a way around this, and never come up with anything.
    It would probably be a bitch, but is it possible to get it out of /sea? If you can you may be able to suppress the /sea bar from coming up and get the information that way... it seems rather slow and ugly though. I don't know the mechanics behind it.
    Easily, I can do this already. The problem still stands that you couldn't get the levels of anon players. That and it's glaringly inelegant. :/

  17. #157
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    The level of the ally is going to come into play on cure 1-4.

    The equation to calculate enmity for that involves the level of the player you cure (doesn't involve the level of the caster actually). If you are looking only at endgame events though, you can just assume it to be 75.

    Also, I'm curious. How do you tell your own and others' enmity from gear? What about people changing gear? Does the game have that information for you?

  18. #158

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko
    The level of the ally is going to come into play on cure 1-4.

    The equation to calculate enmity for that involves the level of the player you cure (doesn't involve the level of the caster actually). If you are looking only at endgame events though, you can just assume it to be 75.

    Also, I'm curious. How do you tell your own and others' enmity from gear? What about people changing gear? Does the game have that information for you?
    You can't tell others' enmity gear, but from what I understand their enmity gear doesn't come into play when calculating your own TE. The only information the game sends you (without checking them) is the id numbers for the models they currently have equipped. (Shared between different pieces of equipment, and only visible models, so no rings et cetera.) Even if you did check them, you wouldn't be able to get their enmity merits. So calculating the TE of allies isn't something that could be done. You'd have to have the tank running the plugin, as well as yourself.

  19. #159
    Kaeko
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    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whatinthe
    Quote Originally Posted by Taj
    (Tank) I have 4885 kaekos at the moment, BLMs, don't nuke above 3000 kaekos.
    I don't think this will be possible. The test done by Kaeko/Ashira so far has dealt with mobs dealing 0 damage to each party member. It is said on the JP wiki that CE (or their term for it, ?????) declines when you are hit by the mob for damage - furthermore, the amount of emnity lost is directly correlated to the amount of health you have. So not only with this plug-in have to deal with whether a spell lands or not (and according to >>121 hate for a "no effect" is less than that which actually lands), it also has to take into account damage dealt, and how much total hp was the target at the time of spell, not to mention stuff like hate reset, mob moves, mob spells, and aoe spell/moves.

    As for Kaeko, I didn't realize that you did not get a chance to test the VE portions of the spell I mentioned. I took a look at it once more, and it is abundantly clear that the VE is not listed on major spells like Flash and Stun, which should definately have higher TE than 180.

    I would like to have the VE value for Provoke down to an exact number. From your blog, it seems that you were using a stopwatch and came to the conclusion that "it's around 30 sec". Although it nearly matches the JP observation of 28 second, once this value is down solid, one can figure out the VE value for almost any spell or move by using two accounts by one person.

    The JP method for determining the Provoke VE cooldown was to have person A voke the mob, wait at least 30 seconds, then have person B voke the mob. Then they time the number of seconds required for the mob to "turn back" to person A, and used /wait to do so. Since the above link showed that at -50%+ emnity, it took 14 seconds to do so, plus the 28 seconds figure wildely circulating, I think that you might be off on the number a bit. Maybe you can get the "initial hate" number out too, whether it's a multiple or not, so the following can be possible.

    >>121's conculsion was that "provoke hate is worth an initial silence, then a 210-220 Cure IV cast 8 seconds later". The macro used was

    (WHM/BST)
    /ma Silence <t>
    /wait 8
    /ma "Cure IV" <me>

    (Lv 5 WAR/nosub)
    /wait 15
    /ja Provoke <t>

    He claimed that by pressing these macros simultaneously, the voke occured right after the Cure spell fired. So from the 5VE/hp cured figure, there's at least 1050 to 1100 VE involved, plus the CE from the initial Silence (+initial hate), and the CE from Cure IV as well. He then went on to adjust his own HP further and adjust the mule's voke timer, and proved the 12.5hp/sec worth of linear hate loss.

    When he put on -emn gear (Tamas Ring), it took 235hp for the mule to get target at 15 seconds. This puts his VE hate from Cure IV at 1139 plus the stuff I listed above. The reason he did this as WHM/BST was to be able to cast silence on worms, and use charm/release to reset hate without resorting to killing the mob. Once the CE/VE for the initial silence and voke is down pat, any WHM or RDM with a 30+ BST sub could do this along with a mule acct without worrying about the level of the mob or getting the mule acct killed.

    And the Bald RDM kensho did involve the use of a third person (WHM) to get initial hate. He also mentioned that as RDM tank, he had no problems with hate just by using Blind, so his conclusions were that even though VE is high for Blind, there is some CE although not as high as other spells. The only thing I can think of that would cause this inconsistency with your 1CE Blind test is that since the Lv0 mob was already at the floor of mob accuracy against a Lv75, the Blind didn't actually have an effect since internally there was 0 effective change to the mob's status with the exception that it was "blinded". This would be consistent with less hate gained on a "no effect" spell.
    Ashira and I just tested the VE of provoke. We have it down to between 1792 and 1801. At this point I'm just going to assume it's exactly 1800. Our testing can't get it more precise due to how often the mob chooses to pick targets. I think it's pretty accurate though - at least enough.

    The decay of it was that it took exactly 30 seconds to decay fully. We set this test up by doing this... 3rd party puller, both Dispel (320 CE each), I cure twice (322 CE Kae, 320 Ashi), Ashira Vokes (322 CE Kae, 321 CE Ashi). I will eventually retake hate because of having 1 higher CE, but all VE must decay for this to occur. We timed how long this took to occur and it takes EXACTLY 30 seconds, or the full provoke recast timer. There is some error in this because we are using a watch, but it would certainly not be to the degree of 2 second differences (the JP blog claims 28, we would not be 2 seconds off by error alone).

    I'm pretty confident that despite what that blog claims, Voke is 1800 VE and the decay rate is -60VE/sec. I'm just going on this based on the fact that our tests are fully controlled and I personally don't think theirs were simply because they had no concept of the dual enmity system.

  20. #160
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    Caitsith

    Re: Enmity testing, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

    Wouldn't it be simpler to assume your allies are all the same level as you? If you're doing endgame, chances are everyone is 75. If you're doing a capped fight, everybody is capped. If you're exping, everyone will be roughly your level.

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