FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

[Kincard]

I'd totally buy that they didn't even get to do half of what they wanted for Adoulin. The whole storyline for Adoulin felt like it only just finished introductions and then just ended (The quests they've added since then help somewhat, but I can't but feel that they originally intended to have all that weave together into the main story for something much bigger).

Also I guess it's possible they want to retcon Cait Sith and co. as Avatars, but it is kinda weird considering how the storyline/lore guys are probably the few we have of the dev team who are from the game's launch. They seemed to be very careful in the past to never outright refer to Cait Sith/Atomos/Hades as Avatars so its odd they'd change that now.

[Fwahm]

Prime avatar just means their physical form.

The Prime avatars in the avatar fights are the ones sleeping in the crystal (Im pretty sure), whereas the one you fight is just an extension of them, a sliver of their power.

The giant maw in the void, floating above in the sky, thats Prime Atomos. The cait sith you interact with is however I think the Prime Form for most of the plot, but he is very weak since normal mortals can just like, grab him and cart him around, and Lilisette is pretty abusive to Cait so... yeah.

So Siren that we meet is in her Prime form, not an extension of her. Thats a big deal, because it means we beat up a prime avatar, not just some sliver of their power.

No, this is incorrect. The status of "Prime" means that the body you are interacting with is an avatar (dictionary definition) of the entity, which they have granted a portion of their power to. Primes are weaker than their true self, because only a portion of their power has been granted to that body, and lack their active consciousness. In comparison, Avatars (without the Prime) have their full and complete power, essence, and consciousness.

Prime Avatars: The Avatars you fight in the Trial by X quests, the Fenrir you fight in The Moonlit Path, The Odin you fight in The Rider Cometh, the Avatars you fight in Waking the Beast, Summoner summons (they're not given the adjective of Prime, though), the cavernous maws, and the Atomos that Cait Sith Caethir summons (probably)

True Avatars: Carbuncle in the Summoner quest, the Avatars that speak before and after the fights in the Trial by X quests, Diabolos in CoP and Waking Dreams, Fenrir in WotG windurst finale, Odin in Einherjar and when Luzaf summons him, Alexander in ToAU finale and Waking the Colossus, Siren, Cait Sith, Cait Sith Ceithir, all the Avatars when they conversed in the recent RoV cutscene, and the Avatars that converse with you in Waking the Beast

Unknown: The avatars you speak to before and after the battles in the Trial by X (they're never given a label when they speak, and it's unclear whether they're speaking to you from the bodies they fight you with, or just as ethereal voices) and the giant Atomos in WoE

[Ophannus]

Haven't played since March...any chance someone can summarize the lore for Vagary/Sinister Reign and the new expansion? Curious how they're tieing up loose ends.

[The Assman]

Vagary: Some dvergr and 2 skull guys you meet via a portal (like Monstrosity) in Leafallia use your memories to transform the spirits in Ra'Kaznar into replicas of your enemies as part of the dvergr's experiments. There are some hints about him being familiar with Hades after you beat all 5 bosses.

Sinister Reign: Balamor makes you fight replicas/alternate versions of your SoA friends for his amusement. He's intentionally vague about the specifics of what's going on, obviously a "don't think about too much" gameplay over lore type thing. Basically a special event like Heroes' Combat, etc. with actual rewards.

RoV: As far as lore goes and not the actual plot, we learn of a Far Eastern place called Reisenshrine which will presumably be the 3rd Escha zone and/or final battlefield. There's also some minor development with Vana'diel's pantheon, like a scene with Balamor and all 4 dark avatars, and they revealed that Tartarus (where Balamor, the Xol, Sajj'dragon, and the Naakuals were from IIRC) is an alternate timeline.

[Kyte]

They aren't replicas- you actually are fighting them.

[Tarage]

They aren't replicas- you actually are fighting them.

Alternate versions of them. Obviously they aren't the actual people because none of them recognize you. Plus we get to see SSJ Arcelia, who clearly didn't have our help, and this had to make a pact with Odin or whatever and the Naakuals. The point is, their being in our dimension has something to do with Balamor's intrusions.

[Kyte]

Spoiler: show

He may or may not be giving them additional power, but they are real.

[Malithar]

Spoiler: show

He may or may not be giving them additional power, but they are real.

Considering Balamor's role in the last batch of RoV missions, I'd imagine this is just a miniaturized reality he's created with "real" versions of these characters, not that they're the real versions we know and have interacted with. If that's not the case, SE really dropped the ball getting that point across. I'd think you'd see something more like Arcelia tripping out that she was fighting you, but unable to control herself. Or August happy to test his strength against the one that saved his empire, etc. Instead every single one of them make no mention towards even faintly knowing you, they just have their basic personalities. In your SE he even admits they're from an improved reality, which was his goal in RoV.

[arus2001]

Think of them like Abyssea Prishe, only a third reality where you've never met. Then just add some obedience hypnojumbo. Doesn't seem too difficult to grasp.

[Sechs]

Spoiler: show

He may or may not be giving them additional power, but they are real.

I don't see anything in the text you've quoted that contradicts what Tarage and the others have been saying.
Balamor clearly says he's been manipulating space and time to give you some "real" improved versions of the characters you know.

Also I don't think that "alternate" Arciela made a path with Odin or anything, she's just using the power of the Naakuals and Otharsyne. (just my guess of course)

[Tarage]

The Odin thing was a joke, considering that every 'dark' character has made some sort of pact with the asshole.

[Fwahm]

He's not saying that they're real in the sense that the characters are the actual people, of this or any other reality, he's saying they're real in the sense that they're not merely illusions, or tricks of the mind; he physically created them and they're actually there to fight you, and that the battles are real, with real consequences.

[Sechs]

I had the same exact interpretation of Fwahm

[Sechs]

So uhm... I forgot. What exactely were Escha zones in the end?
Areas created by Siren, representing what a certain zone would be if the emptyness consumed it all?

[Suteru]

I don't think we know yet. We just know what they're sort of like what happened before the Emptiness killed everything in the future.

[Sechs]

Didn't Siren say that she was "forced" to create the Escha zones while under control from Volto Oscuro?
Or am I thinking about something else?

[scaevola]

So, they basically explained why Odin Did It, right? That's not just me?

Spoiler: show

Promathia's dead and CoD will devour the world without Light/Dark conflict, so Odin steps up, but he's nowhere near powerful enough to rival Altana, which is why the game gets progressively more Void-ey with every Light victory.

[ronin sparthos]

So, they basically explained why Odin Did It, right? That's not just me?

Spoiler: show

Promathia's dead and CoD will devour the world without Light/Dark conflict, so Odin steps up, but he's nowhere near powerful enough to rival Altana, which is why the game gets progressively more Void-ey with every Light victory.

Spoiler: show

Not really since Alexander and Odin have been at it in perpetuity, regardless of Promathia's status. Both ultimately answer to Altana and her word is law.

The tilt towards light wins in our world dragged Vana'Diel towards the void in the same way that Desuetia is a world where dark wins and is likewise destined for the wastebin. Like most FFs before it, the moral of the story is that light and darkness are required in the world and trying to tip things too much in one direction gets your world gobble gobbled by the Void. The equation must BALANCE.

Oh and Altana seems to be a pretty poor manager god.

[scaevola]

Spoiler: show

Not really since Alexander and Odin have been at it in perpetuity, regardless of Promathia's status. Both ultimately answer to Altana and her word is law.

Spoiler: show

Sure, but that's part of it, right? No matter how far back Ragnarok goes, Promathia's death predates it, so it's basically a ritual to kick-start Light/Dark conflict, the same as the Mesus fight. In recent times that hasn't been enough thanks to Altana's children coming into their own (the Emptiness shows up), so Odin has to do some extracurriculars and creates the Shadow Lord.

Altana does kind of suck, though. Her strategy to change history in WotG was literally to Cry More.

[Ophannus]

Any chance someone can write up a summary of the RoV expansion and how everything ties together? Are there any loose ends you guys think? The fact that Void/CoD is in FFXI now makes my headspin....they've been in like what 4-5 FF games now?