A sad observation: RMT's are now fencing stolen goods.

[ronin sparthos]

Theres a few problems with bring the law into this situation.

1) Even if the U.S courts smashed every asset IGE or any RMT company had in the US, there still based out of the country.
2) Because sale of goods is made on line and they are out of the country there is no way to block the business they do in the US.
3) Even if some how the effort was made to do 2 a simple name change and instead of IGE owned by mark seller its now IGC owned by mathew seller and poof no more pesky legal issues, unless there brought up again.
4) in the event that the company has no ties directly to the U.S other then sale over the internet there is very very very very little recourse.
5) even if the RMT site was based wholly in the US the law really is ultra hazy on this topic.
5a) RMT don't steal gil, at every moment in time SE is in full control and possession of all items and accounts in the game.
5b) RMT use buy and sell, however a lawyer worth his salt will easily be able to explain that away buy simply stating what is being sold is a service and not a product. RMT sell u the service of gil gathering not the gil itself.
5b1) Since RMTs will argue service they will try then to relate themselves with a shop owner selling CD's rather then the pirate stealing the music and selling them.
5b2) RMTs will argue the fact that they pay subscription fees grants them the liberty to gather as much gil as they want in the game and trade it to other players in the same game. Technically RMT are not conductiong themselves out of the scope of any other player while there on the game. One player can trade another player gil. All sales are made outside of the game.. this further limits what SE can do towards statign a cause of action.
6) Even given all that if a law suit was to be successfully carried out and action was then taken by SE against buyers of gil, if that information was even made available, SE will then be open to law suits themselves.
7) RMT sites/companys can be striped down and rebuilt in a manner of days.

so basically after years of work and huge huge cost to the US/ State government who pursues the action out of country RMT companies remain unaffected and those who decide to open up in the US need only base their accounts out of the country and flee should they be caught and not want to pay what the court might charge them to pay.

Yeah don't count on any kind of legal suit going to far or gettign any worth while results if it originates in the government sector.

the US government does not care to spend millions to go after RMTs.

It would be private sector all the way so Blizz and other MMO developers would have to flip the bill.

now is that how it should be?
Well in the real world should be and ought to be don't really count unless people with power want them too.

Thats why ive always favored vigilante justice, quick and straight to the point. Too many loopholes in the current justice system regarding cyber crimes, makes it too easy to be a victim and left high n dry.

[danoob]

Where there is demand, someone will always step up to fill that demand.

The Gillsellers keep coming back because even with the mass bannings and removal of their gil, they are still making a profit. They are making a profit because of the demand.

IF they remove all the professional Gill Sellers, I guarantee many legitimate players would step up to fill the void.

You look at someone and tell them that you wont accept 100 bucks for 10k gil... Sure this is hypothetical, but the point is you will NEVER get rid of RMT. Unless there is no reason to buy what you want.

[ronin sparthos]

You can make gilsellers lives very difficult though, by being as dynamic and fluidic as they are.

You see how they have done the account hackings while SE has bumbled around trying to figure out if 2400 people are lying? Had they been more fluid with handling the issue and had contingency plans set up to handle the very possibility of something like this happening then the RMT wouldnt be thriving as of now. (Very Merry Christmas for them this year)

SE continues to tell people about security and whatnot, but they need to be dynamic and prepared for anything (something like whats happening now isnt outside the realm of possible scenarios SE could have drafted up) if they wanna beat the RMT at what they do.

The 3way plan of banning Gilbuyers, nuking gilsellers and eliminating the action of hacking people for profit combined would damage the gil making machine the gilfarmers love so much. Even if the gilbuyers come back, you can only shell out so much cash before you damage yourself and give up all while SE profits on your idiocy.

[danoob]

You can make gilsellers lives very difficult though, by being as dynamic and fluidic as they are.

You see how they have done the account hackings while SE has bumbled around trying to figure out if 2400 people are lying? Had they been more fluid with handling the issue and had contingency plans set up to handle the very possibility of something like this happening then the RMT wouldnt be thriving as of now. (Very Merry Christmas for them this year)

SE continues to tell people about security and whatnot, but they need to be dynamic and prepared for anything (something like whats happening now isnt outside the realm of possible scenarios SE could have drafted up) if they wanna beat the RMT at what they do.

The 3way plan of banning Gilbuyers, nuking gilsellers and eliminating the action of hacking people for profit combined would damage the gil making machine the gilfarmers love so much. Even if the gilbuyers come back, you can only shell out so much cash before you damage yourself and give up all while SE profits on your idiocy.

So they should have planned that 2500 people would download a keylogger?

Damn I knew I should have bought that game with the built in Anti Virus, web browser, and Firewall.

SE can not be responsible for Id10-t errors people

[Gergall]

So they should have planned that 2500 people would download a keylogger?

Damn I knew I should have bought that game with the built in Anti Virus, web browser, and Firewall.

SE can not be responsible for Id10-t errors people

SE should have realized that account hackers can change billing info to lock up an account. Even fake billing info works if they only want to lock the account, take everything, and then abandon the account when SE tries and fails to bill it.

There should be an alternate way to prove account ownership, especially if your billing info has just been changed.

[ronin sparthos]

You can make gilsellers lives very difficult though, by being as dynamic and fluidic as they are.

You see how they have done the account hackings while SE has bumbled around trying to figure out if 2400 people are lying? Had they been more fluid with handling the issue and had contingency plans set up to handle the very possibility of something like this happening then the RMT wouldnt be thriving as of now. (Very Merry Christmas for them this year)

SE continues to tell people about security and whatnot, but they need to be dynamic and prepared for anything (something like whats happening now isnt outside the realm of possible scenarios SE could have drafted up) if they wanna beat the RMT at what they do.

The 3way plan of banning Gilbuyers, nuking gilsellers and eliminating the action of hacking people for profit combined would damage the gil making machine the gilfarmers love so much. Even if the gilbuyers come back, you can only shell out so much cash before you damage yourself and give up all while SE profits on your idiocy.

So they should have planned that 2500 people would download a keylogger?

Damn I knew I should have bought that game with the built in Anti Virus, web browser, and Firewall.

SE can not be responsible for Id10-t errors people

Errors which lead to lost profits when RMT abandon 2500 accounts at the end of the month. Contingency plans for things along the lines of compromised accounts isnt that hard for SE to do, it helps maintain those almighty-dollar trees we are at the end of the month. Stop using the firewall/anti-virus story and use some common sense, but common sense isnt very common is it huh.

It isnt very 'out there' for SE to have seen something like this coming, especially when your shoving broomsticks up peoples bums with the RMT mass-bans. Its up to the individual to protect themselves, but its up to SE to protect us - we're the money trees after all.

[Gergall]

By the way, please forgive my ignorance, but where did the ~2500 number of accounts come from? I've seen the number 2500 mentioned several times.

[Catrina]

Those numbers were given to several different people by SE representatives.

[Khamsin]

Theres a few problems with bring the law into this situation.

1) Even if the U.S courts smashed every asset IGE or any RMT company had in the US, there still based out of the country.

They have those branches in the US for a reason. Eliminating them would cause problems for them.

2) Because sale of goods is made on line and they are out of the country there is no way to block the business they do in the US.

Unless it were done from the buyer's end, but prohibiting a US citizen from making the purchase, rather than prohibiting a chinese company from making the sale.

3) Even if some how the effort was made to do 2 a simple name change and instead of IGE owned by mark seller its now IGC owned by mathew seller and poof no more pesky legal issues, unless there brought up again.

Assuming the court really had no way of connecting the prior and current names/owners and that any company can do whatever the hell they want then change names to be free of all financial and legal obligations, they'd just bring up the IGE trial as a precedent for the IGC trial, and make things easier. In the end, it'd cost more to IGC to do that compared to the prosecution.

4) in the event that the company has no ties directly to the U.S other then sale over the internet there is very very very very little recourse.

They need a US billing address/credit card. Could stop them there.

5) even if the RMT site was based wholly in the US the law really is ultra hazy on this topic.

Then allow MMORPG companies to decide who they want or don't want offering services involving their game.

5a) RMT don't steal gil, at every moment in time SE is in full control and possession of all items and accounts in the game.

They do things expressly against the TOS of the game.

5b) RMT use buy and sell, however a lawyer worth his salt will easily be able to explain that away buy simply stating what is being sold is a service and not a product. RMT sell u the service of gil gathering not the gil itself.

Then amend the TOS to disallow any and all services involving the game, in addition to gilselling, without permission.

5b1) Since RMTs will argue service they will try then to relate themselves with a shop owner selling CD's rather then the pirate stealing the music and selling them.

If they disallow service as well, then this is solved. Besides, there's a license that makes it legal to resell CDs which is not present for FFXI-related services.

5b2) RMTs will argue the fact that they pay subscription fees grants them the liberty to gather as much gil as they want in the game and trade it to other players in the same game. Technically RMT are not conductiong themselves out of the scope of any other player while there on the game. One player can trade another player gil. All sales are made outside of the game.. this further limits what SE can do towards statign a cause of action.

Despite fees paid, the TOS outlines what's allowed and not allowed, which includes gil gathering with intent to sell but allows gil gathering with intent to use legitimately. SE reserves the right to deny service to anyone. There's many RL parallels of things that are legal, but only illegal when used with certain intents or to certain ends.

6) Even given all that if a law suit was to be successfully carried out and action was then taken by SE against buyers of gil, if that information was even made available, SE will then be open to law suits themselves.

SE has not sold FFXI-related services without their own permission, and so would not have any case against themselves. Plus, its not as if the RMT could sue, as SE retains the right to deny service to anyone for any reason. Especially people who explicitly violate their rules.

7) RMT sites/companys can be striped down and rebuilt in a manner of days.

Which costs them time and money. Do it enough, and even if they don't go out of business completely, it stresses out their managers and makes their lives miserable. They might find other, less stressful, careers. Or the costs may make the business unprofitable.

so basically after years of work and huge huge cost to the US/ State government who pursues the action out of country RMT companies remain unaffected and those who decide to open up in the US need only base their accounts out of the country and flee should they be caught and not want to pay what the court might charge them to pay.

Well, I wouldn't say "unaffected". If nothing else, they're making things harder on the RMT than if they did nothing. Even if RMT couldn't be quashed, there's a difference between RMT living comfortably without a care, and RMT struggling to meet bottom line and the stress of managers to constantly be on the lookout and get new CC numbers and accounts made and overall living a crappier life because of it. I'd rather have the latter.

[Lampoon]

People need to stop buying gil. Ban gil buyers and demand will dwindle, eliminating the whole gil selling process.

[Kyreth]

People need to stop buying gil. Ban gil buyers and demand will dwindle, eliminating the whole gil selling process.

This is akin to saying "people need to stop using drugs". They won't, but making the entire process of RMT supply-and-demand as painful and risky as possible will remove it as a significant influence on the game, other that disgust from the playerbase.

That it is quite likely at least a few gil-buyer's accounts have been hacked, stripped and the contents resold to other gilbuyers at this point as Gil is a cruel amusement to me.

[Lampoon]

Hamsterdam


Those who watch The Wire, know what I'm talking about.

[Saeriel]

In my opinion, and I could be wrong...

The best way to get rid of RMT would be to remove the difficulty of farming gil, items, etc...

Make item drops more plentiful, make gil drops more common, NM's spawn much much more, etc etc.

Make a system of plenty and the need for RMT, and therefore their power - will go by the wayside.

[ronin sparthos]

You'd get rid of the playerbase as well with that kinda tactic though, you make everything easier and the average player will scoot through everything, be loaded with gil and the ingame economy will be inflated to all hell and eventually people would quit because they completed everything in record time.

To rid the game of RMT, SE needs to use pincer attacks with bombarding the RMT with more frequent bans, step up and lock down the ease of hijacking accounts and hitting the gilbuyers with bought gil confiscations, temp bans and unexpected GM raids on items and services bought using RMT services.

Scare enough gilbuyers and they will think twice about charging that money via IGE and annoy the gilsellers enough and they will move on to more lucrative games. They wont ever fully dissapear, but their presence can be lowered significantly through annoying tactics SE could employ.

[Saeriel]

You'd lose some players - but I've seen more players start and quit because it's so hard to get anywhere with this game...

Strangely - the game with the biggest playerbase of them all, does just that, and while they lose players, they get them too.. weird really. I hate using Warcraft as a good thing, but - while you see a plethora of shouts of buying gold - there's never any need to.

You might lose BG as it is, as everyone suddenly becomes "Elite". SE could learn.. the whole damn book off Blizzard from where I'm sitting right now.

[Kirianna]

I'm sure the U.S. has similar laws to Canada in this regard. Still not sure how you'd tie this to a company like IGE. With the gilsellers themselves it would be easy, unfortunately their not the ones in the country eh. Anywho more real law instead of hypothetical is good for everyone.

PART IX: OFFENCES AGAINST RIGHTS OF PROPERTY
Offences Resembling Theft
Unauthorized use of computer
342.1 (1) Every one who, fraudulently and without colour of right,

(a) obtains, directly or indirectly, any computer service,

(b) by means of an electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device, intercepts or causes to be intercepted, directly or indirectly, any function of a computer system,

(c) uses or causes to be used, directly or indirectly, a computer system with intent to commit an offence under paragraph (a) or (b) or an offence under section 430 in relation to data or a computer system, or

(d) uses, possesses, traffics in or permits another person to have access to a computer password that would enable a person to commit an offence under paragraph (a), (b) or (c)

is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, or is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Definitions
(2) In this section,

“computer password”

« mot de passe »
“computer password” means any data by which a computer service or computer system is capable of being obtained or used;

“computer program”

« programme d’ordinateur »
“computer program” means data representing instructions or statements that, when executed in a computer system, causes the computer system to perform a function;

“computer service”

« service d’ordinateur »
“computer service” includes data processing and the storage or retrieval of data;

“computer system”

« ordinateur »
“computer system” means a device that, or a group of interconnected or related devices one or more of which,

(a) contains computer programs or other data, and

(b) pursuant to computer programs,

(i) performs logic and control, and

(ii) may perform any other function;

“data”

« données »
“data” means representations of information or of concepts that are being prepared or have been prepared in a form suitable for use in a computer system;

“electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device”

« dispositif électromagnétique, acoustique, mécanique ou autre »
“electro-magnetic, acoustic, mechanical or other device” means any device or apparatus that is used or is capable of being used to intercept any function of a computer system, but does not include a hearing aid used to correct subnormal hearing of the user to not better than normal hearing;

“function”

« fonction »
“function” includes logic, control, arithmetic, deletion, storage and retrieval and communication or telecommunication to, from or within a computer system;

“intercept”

« intercepter »
“intercept” includes listen to or record a function of a computer system, or acquire the substance, meaning or purport thereof;

“traffic”

« trafic »
“traffic” means, in respect of a computer password, to sell, export from or import into Canada, distribute or deal with in any other way.

R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 45; 1997, c. 18, s. 18.



Section 430 as it is talked about in the above section c relates to mischief in relation to data:

1.1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully

(a) destroys or alters data;

(b) renders data meaningless, useless or ineffective;

(c) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with the lawful use of data; or

(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use of data or denies access to data to any person who is entitled to access thereto.

(8) In this section, “data” has the same meaning as in section 342.1.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 430; R.S., 1985, c. 27 (1st Supp.), s. 57; 1994, c. 44, s. 28; 2001, c. 41, s. 12; 2005, c. 40, s. 3.



///So you could definately lay a charge assuming the evidence was there. I believe in the case of the FF accounts that were hacked sufficient evidence would be available to lay charges in Canada(and I can't imagine the U.S. doesn't have identical or nearly identical laws since these laws are intended for serious computer crimes). The issue is, of course, that laying a charge and even obtaining a conviction mean next to nothing when the people are in China. You couldn't lay any charge against companies like IGE that I can see. Unless you can lay charges in relation to possession of property resulting from the commission of another offence. But then you still need to prove mens rea that companies like IGE knew the process by which the gilsellers were obtaining the data(in this case hacking the accounts) which would be tough.

[ronin sparthos]

Hence why IGE still exists, they are suspended in a void of the law that allows them to be protected from almost anything so long as they can throw lawyers at any direct threats and feign knowledge of anything illegal.

IGE is a perfect example of how someone can profit on the loopholes of the justice system all while making it look easy.

[Infini]

One of the few things SE COULD do is try fixing NPC prices I mean when u farm stuff off mid to high lvl mobs and only get 12~15 gil for each item..... well u can see how much that reeks of fail And when go to buy the Barone armour off the NPC in tavnasian safehold for 25million gil (YES you read right go check yourself if ya dont believe me) then you can see where the problems begin. Both the Selling AND buying of items from NPCs need to be altered a great deal to be more fairly balanced imo as the biggest reason ppl might be tempted to buy gil IN THE FIRST PLACE is down to the fact that u can farm most items common for hours yet get fuck all for it at the AH and the NPC at the end of the day is really a pain in the ass.

[Khamsin]

So how long before someone lobbys for a law that would allow companies to directly sue IGE and win? One that doesn't rely on careful wording and can't be escaped by how carefully you describe your services. One that just says "SE owns FFXI and has the final say on what FFXI-related services are provided by third parties." One that allows any competent judge to look at the situation and recognize what's going on, and allow IGE to be sued successfully no matter what their lawyers do to try and get out of it.

[ronin sparthos]

It'd have to still be a challenge to get but yeah, i agree that some of the items could use a massive overhaul though i think in the case of the barone being 25m that SE was pushing you to get some friends and climb the Uleguerand Range for Jorm and the fact that 25m during the height of CoP doesnt compare to todays 25m pricetag.

SE could change prices, but RMT usually target NM drops anyway.