Question Discussion

[ronin sparthos]

Put that in Wing I and people would be all over Einherjar. lol

[Tomiko]

Oh... and before its stated: 'Bring Kings into 2008' please. Merits and Players skills/abilities are going through the roof - lets see some scaling on the monster side for crying out loud. 'We want players to be intimidated by these monsters' - yeah SE? well make Aspidochelone strike fear into my heart.

I fully support this version of scaling. :bagel:

[Gergall]

Question 1
Is there a way to enhance skillchains beyond the additional damage and the boni on bursts?
Maybe after a successful skillchain (inclusive a magic burst of atleast a certain damage) decrease the monsters tp and prohibit its tp gain for a short amount of time and an exp bonus. The strenght of the effect based on the Tier of the SC.
That would make the usage of melees and SCing in HNM fights more favourable and would make blms for exp partys more interesting

This is an excellent suggestion.

I would propose that some minor bonus(es) be granted by the skillchain, and some really good different/enhanced bonus(es) be granted by the magic burst.

[Wolfheinrich]

I see that the question about adding Khroma ore to Salvage loot table has already been asked (which I think is a great idea), but can add a little more detail to it?

Sky gods has always dropped synth material that is used to craft the cursed armor
Sea NMs don't have any synth material because there is no craftable armor in Sea
Limbus chests sometimes produces craft material required for the AF+1 and obviously ABCs.
Dynamis drop currency which is used to upgrade relic weapon and armor
Why shouldn't Salvage boss drop the synth material required to produce Salvage armor?

All of these trends really suggest every events that is currently in game are designed to be self sufficient and self contained, why shouldn't Salvage be the same way? Khroma ore, Marid hide, O.ore, bloodwood Lumber should be included in Salvage loot table, for consistency sake.

[Bakthi]

That's a nice way of putting it.

[Cream Soda]

I see that the question about adding Khroma ore to Salvage loot table has already been asked (which I think is a great idea), but can add a little more detail to it?

Sky gods has always dropped synth material that is used to craft the cursed armor
Sea NMs don't have any synth material because there is no craftable armor in Sea
Limbus chests sometimes produces craft material required for the AF+1 and obviously ABCs.
Dynamis drop currency which is used to upgrade relic weapon and armor
Why shouldn't Salvage boss drop the synth material required to produce Salvage armor?

All of these trends really suggest every events that is currently in game are designed to be self sufficient and self contained, why shouldn't Salvage be the same way? Khroma ore, Marid hide, O.ore, bloodwood Lumber should be included in Salvage loot table, for consistency sake.

Dont' forget entire stacks of imperial wootz!

[Elipse]

Not sure your comparisons are going to work.
Alot of HNM LS' dont worry about Day1-4 NQ, and they just go right for the HQ. And if were comparing low tiers as NQs, then where are the Ridill's, Abjs, Moneydrops and Thundercoulds at? Usually NQs always drop something of worth to someone; low tier drops rarely have anything. Ive won Einherjar around 20 times (mostly all tier 1), and ive yet to see anything drop ever. Now maybe if the drop rates were increased or something.

With HNM you may not be guaranteed a claim, but youll usually always get something worthwhile. With Einherjar, you may be guaranteed the claim, but usually youll never get anything good, that is if you win and dont get screwed over by 12 ghost, 12 elementals and a madrid.

Im not really sure people actually go and plan religiously for Tav either, it's usually one of those "Well, looks like we have a real low turnout tonight, might as well do a quick run though" type of thing. I dont think people would to Tav more than once a month, so thats 1m a month, when getting to Odin (if you win all of them) costs 1,800,000.

Einherjar would be better if it had a better low end reward system. Yes, Odin drops (if you win..) are very nice (atleast the 100% on old abj thing, wtf at the new abj stats..), but there should be better rates on the lower tiers. Hell, atleast when you do sky/sea mobs to get to the 'boss' the lower tiers mobs drop something worthwhile. Not to mention it takes 30 wins to get a purchasable item (and arnt very good), assualt has better rewards and you can get the top items in about 15 runs.

Getting to Odin takes about as much time to get to as it would to take you to claim an HQ HNM, it takes a minimum of 30(? (and thats if you win)) days to get worth while drops, when theoretically you have the chance at getting around 18 (every 5 days x3 (rough estimate)) HQ king claims. True most LSs do both, but in the state Einherjar is in currently, it is in no way shape or form better, or a replace for Kings.


Really had not intention to go on that long, but damn, guess my hate for Einherjar brought up some other stuff.

Many LS's don't have experience killing HNMs. Most LS's only get that experience doing the Apollyon King run, or KS99s.

I've seen quite a few new LS's attempt to kill King Behemoth and Fafnir/Nidhogg and fail. It's a much different environment when you have 5x the amount of people around you than you did when practicing, and the terrain is vastly different. Anybody can claim a King, but it's how they handle the fight and their knowledge of the situation that leads to victory. Unfortunately, many new LS's become too excited or anxious when they get claim that they are overwhelmed with emotion that clouds the mind.

It's amazing how many people can't kite a King Behemoth, it's amazing how many people flail a Fafnir, it's amazing how many people don't know what to do with Meteor, it's amazing how many people stand in breath range, it's amazing how many people melee Aspidochelone in its shell.

Einherjar is a completely different experience. Instead of only able to use 18 people, you are granted access with 36 people, plenty to decimate any chamber. You aren't required to use 36 people, nor is it impossible to do without. It requires practice, but everything you fight is a common monster you see in everyday-vana'diel (just higher HP!), so every fight is intuitive, and you most likely already know the behavior of those mobs and what they can do.

When it comes to Nidhogg and King Behemoth (Aspidochelone in some cases), you aren't guaranteed the win (just like with Odin). Not to mention there are other people out there that are willing to make sure you DON'T get the win. You could theoretically get a Nidhogg every 4 days, or every 6 months. It all depends on your luck as a LS, and your teamwork as a team.

With Einherjar, you can easily rip through the chambers leading to Odin (Again, 3rd tier is more difficult than the other tiers, no promises if you win or not. My LS has beat 2 of them in a row this week, with one of the bosses being Dvergr [considered the hardest boss of the tier] so they aren't impossible to win). You are GUARANTEED the claim at Odin. You, just like any fight, aren't guaranteed the win, but with the amount of information that has risen (See Tomiko's link to a thread I've mentioned previously), the fight is rather simple and also very fun

I really think that people should not be worrying about the "nq" prizes. My reasoning of that is because of how common "nq" drops already are (Not talking about how common the drop rate is, but how common the attempt at the drop is). Square Enix will likely NEVER make Ridill or Defending Ring drop from any other mob in the game, and I hope they don't. An increase to abjurations on each chamber would be welcomed!

I'll offer two perspectives on this. An LS leaders perspective and then an individual one.

LS Leader:
Our LS does not do kings, we have no desire to do kings. As such we can keep a solid LS size in the 35 player range to basically win every single event in the game except Einherjar. We do Sky, Sea, Limbus, Dynamis, Bv2's blah blah.. you get the point.

Realistically speaking, an LS with 30-35 players is not going to get everyone on for a run. Our average event attendance for everything we do is in the 18-20 player range. When I planned an AV attempt we got 26 people to show up (no pop). So at best when planning a run for something super exciting like AV I got 26 people out. As far as I know thats about right for what we'd need to go to Odin comfortably? We win our tier 1 Einherjar's rather easily but we only get about 20 people out per run. (that doens't mean 24, 23, 26, it means 20)

What does this all mean for my LS? It means I'm forced into a position where if I want to take my LS to Odin, I have to grow the LS size for 1 single event. If you check the numbers real quick its a little less than 2 members added per 1 member to attend a run in my LS. Unless your LS is super over the top hardcore, I think those numbers are either realistic or optimistic.That means if I want my average LS attendance to go up by 6 people a run, I have to add nearly 12 more people to my LS. Explain to me how Einherjar rewards justify that? They don't.

Then if I do that, I run into the problem where I have an additional 6 players out to every other event in the game when I simply don't need them. This puts me into a position of having the same amount of rewards overall in the LS but more mouths to feed. It doesn't add up. Some LS's will add whoever and however many they want because they don't care. Anyone that looks realistically at the reward vs players needed balance can see that einherjar is drastically out of sync with the rest of FFXI end game.

I can understand why they would not want to add more to the rewards. I think its stupid, I think its wrong but I can at the very least understand SE's thinking on this. So if we're asking them to fix the Reward vs Effort balance and they don't want to up the rewards, they need to reduce the effort. When I say effort, I really mean number of players needed not the strategic difficulties of the runs.

To make that clear, I'd say either:
A) Reduce the amount of people needed to effectively win this event from Tier 1 right to Odin to 18
Or
B) Increase the rewards to justify the number of players needed.



The Individual perspective:
King camping in my opinion comes down to 4 items. A body, E body, D ring and Ridill. What I mean is people camp every day all day non-stop to get M legs for their PLD. Take those items out and the demand for Kings is drastically reduced. In comparison to Einherjar where you don't have D ring and Ridill, that leaves it down to A body, E body and some maginal whoop-di-do Odin items. I personally wouldn't camp kings for A body, because of salvage.

We can start an A body vs Morrigans/Marduk debate. If refresh is your primary purpose for owning A body (other than epeen) then realistically A body can be obtained elsewhere. So when looking at value, what do people do?

Lets here the mental thoughts of the individual on this: "Lets get 26 people together and go beat Odin?! Oh and since 24 of those people will get virtually nothing! Odds are, I will get nothing. Well I guess I get ampules but really 30 runs for that ring? thats all I'll get? Oh and yeah we have to gather those people every 3 days and if I miss a run I'm screwed! Ok ok it would be hella fun to beat odin once.. but I don't know if its worth it. I'll wait till SE fixes this bullshit." I mean that to me is what most people are probably thinking in their heads.

Compare that to what someone is thinking with salvage...

"Lets get 5 more people and go static salvage? where everyone starts obtaining rewards in a reasonable time frame, we can work on getting many different pieces at once, we can go every single day if we want, any time of the day we want"

So if you take A body, D ring and Ridill out of the picture, how appealing does Einherjar look to most people? Really worth all that for an E body or an Epeen A body? or 30 runs for some marginal ampules item? Answer to that in my opinion is no. I'd rather do salvage and so would many other groups that have wiped their hands of Einherjar. Its not that they're lazy, stupid, suck or anything else of that nature, they simply look at things and it comes down to "I'd rather be doing.... cause its just not worth the effort"

[Tomiko]

We win our tier 1 Einherjar's rather easily but we only get about 20 people out per run. (that doens't mean 24, 23, 26, it means 20)

And here is our Odin from tonight, craptacular.

-Odin Pic-

Was pretty epic. 75% LS wiped to Zantesuken but we zerged the piss out of it weakened...so lucky. Only did it with 22, as well. 28min fight.

Considering some of the time taken was probably recovering after the partial Zant wipe, 20 people is very doable now that the /heal trick has been proven.

Well I guess I get ampules but really 30 runs for that ring?

If it takes you 30 runs to get 15k Ampoules, then you're only doing Tier 1.
Tier 1: 500 (1500 for 3/3)
Tier 2: 750 (2250 for 3/3)
Tier 3: 1000 (3000 for 3/3)
Odin: 1250 (1250)

Assuming you don't repeat any rooms, you get 8000 points per cycle. 2 cycles and you get your item with 1k to spare for the next one.

[Elipse]

We win our tier 1 Einherjar's rather easily but we only get about 20 people out per run. (that doens't mean 24, 23, 26, it means 20)

And here is our Odin from tonight, craptacular.

-Odin Pic-

Was pretty epic. 75% LS wiped to Zantesuken but we zerged the piss out of it weakened...so lucky. Only did it with 22, as well. 28min fight.

Considering some of the time taken was probably recovering after the partial Zant wipe, 20 people is very doable now that the /heal trick has been proven.

Well I guess I get ampules but really 30 runs for that ring?

If it takes you 30 runs to get 15k Ampoules, then you're only doing Tier 1.
Tier 1: 500 (1500 for 3/3)
Tier 2: 750 (2250 for 3/3)
Tier 3: 1000 (3000 for 3/3)
Odin: 1250 (1250)

Assuming you don't repeat any rooms, you get 8000 points per cycle. 2 cycles and you get your item with 1k to spare for the next one.

If you're talking 22 normal players, no kings gear, no ridills, no relics are winning 95% of the wing 3 runs they attempt then great. If the 22 players we talking are fully stacked kings gear/relics/Ridills then you're not speaking for the majority of the end game community. You're only talking about a small subset of the player base. Maybe 1-2 shells per server.

Einherjar should be a consistantly winable event with 18 normal end game players. My take on that is "Fairly well merited, with some sky/sea/limbus gear". Anything beyond that I feel is unrealistic for the entire community. Thus why the event is generally a failure outside some pretty hardcore LS's. SE has slowly over the past year or two reduced the needs to do almost any event in this game to smaller and smaller numbers, why should einherjar be the 1 special event that needs more.

I do have a question though, I thought it was Jaybar or someone that said his LS was barely getting through wing 3 with 24 or 26 players but now doing it with 30+ and its comfortable. I could be wrong on that number. So just because you can beat odin with 22 doesn't mean that getting there is the same thing. Its probably easier to beat Odin than a Wing 3 Einherjar.

Btw, you're right about the points. Would you like me to edit my post to say "20 runs" instead of 30? Thats 20 perfect runs, with no loses, no bad luck or wipes? 2 a week, 8 a month, so 2.5 months without a single wipe. Again people will think these rewards are not worth the effort put in and won't want to waste the time on a back piece with 1 more mnd than the one they already have.

[Tomiko]

Its probably easier to beat Odin than a Wing 3 Einherjar.

It is. Wing 3 rooms are random to the point where your chances to win can be almost 0. Then there's also the easier ones. TG is rather nicely equipped, and we still had to make lots of attempts at Wing 3 rooms til we finally had the Odin clearance. Wings 1 & 2 are fine how they are, Wing 3 I can understand needing more consitancy and/or scaling. As you suspected, it's easier than Odin which shouldn't be the case.

I'm not sure of the gear status of Jaybar's LS, so I can't comment on that.

One suggestion regarding the members issue you mentioned would be to make a seperate shell just for Einherjar. That way you'd have the extra numbers for Einherjar, but wouldn't have to worry about excess people for Mainshell events. I wouldn't have a problem with it being adjusted to be doable by 18 either. If they did though, I would prefer they make 18 the minimum to enter just because that should be the minimum amount needed to actually win, not 6.

10 runs less for a guarenteed item for everyone who participates is alot more time that it looks. Figure that's 5 weeks less needed than speculated. Yes, the 2.5 months to get enough Ampoules is a long time, but during that time you also have a chace at abjurations (albeit a very low chance). They should increase the drop rate to ~25%. That way the abjurations stay rare, but not to the point where you never see one. Or maybe start with tier 1 drop rate the same, then increase the drop rate noticably as you advance tiers.

[Elipse]

One suggestion regarding the members issue you mentioned would be to make a seperate shell just for Einherjar. That way you'd have the extra numbers for Einherjar, but wouldn't have to worry about excess people for Mainshell events.

Just to make it clear, I'm not really complaining based on my LS's performance. Last 4 runs of Tier 1 have been wins, clearing all in under 13 minutes (including boss kill) with 18-20 people. I suspect based on what I've read, that will be enough to get us through Tier II. I could be wrong though.

I consider my LS to be an above average group. That of course is a matter of opinion but its not uncommon to see 200+ merits, fully stacked players in my LS with the only things lacking relics and kings gear. (we have ares bodies and mutiples of other salvage gear etc).

That being said, with our numbers in the 18-20 range, I highly doubt we'll win Wing III without adding additional players based on what I've read. I'd say if stacked groups with relics are winning Tier 3 with 22-24, its going to take us 24-26, if not more (especially if the group in question is using horn). This is where I see the "Growth problem".

I grow my LS for 1 event or I could split off and make a new shell and all that but its kinda frustrating to be playing the work around game because SE decided to make 1 event with a work vs reward balance that is unlike anything else in the game. Especially after slowly making all events require less and less, thus the member base created smaller and smaller shells.

This wasn't intended to be bragging, especially not with other groups having accomplished more, it was just me pointing out that my arguement isn't "OMG itz hard! Nerf Nerf!", but rather that the balance is poor for todays typical end game shell pulling in average 18 member events.

They should increase the drop rate to ~25%. That way the abjurations stay rare, but not to the point where you never see one. Or maybe start with tier 1 drop rate the same, then increase the drop rate noticably as you advance tiers.

I agree, something needs to be done.

[Quizno]

Again people will think these rewards are not worth the effort put in and won't want to waste the time on a back piece with 1 more mnd than the one they already have.

I just go my "1 extra mnd" cape, and I thought it was in sync with the effort.

We spend about 15 minutes in the chamber... Thats it.

I'd rather spend 15 minutes doing this event twice a week, than I do in god forsaken dynamis zones for 2-3 hours each run.

Dynamis kills my enjoyment level in game at this point... I just do it because our LS still needs hats =p

[Gergall]

Question 3
Why doesn't Chocobo Mazurka work in Al Zhabi and in nations of the past?

Al Zhabi and the Past Nations are classified as Dungoens, not outside areas; zones that have NPCs in them but turn into battlegrounds when an event starts. Its the same reason you can summon Pets in these zones, but can't in others where Mazurka works. Different type of .dat file~

Thanks. I understand the technical reason (I am a career programmer). Shouldn't SE change the rules so that these zones allow Mazurka?

Right now the reason for no Mazurka seems to be "we were lazy and used the default Dungeon settings instead of giving these cities a new type of classification."

[Jaybar]

I'll offer two perspectives on this. An LS leaders perspective and then an individual one.

LS Leader:
Our LS does not do kings, we have no desire to do kings. As such we can keep a solid LS size in the 35 player range to basically win every single event in the game except Einherjar. We do Sky, Sea, Limbus, Dynamis, Bv2's blah blah.. you get the point.

Realistically speaking, an LS with 30-35 players is not going to get everyone on for a run. Our average event attendance for everything we do is in the 18-20 player range. When I planned an AV attempt we got 26 people to show up (no pop). So at best when planning a run for something super exciting like AV I got 26 people out. As far as I know thats about right for what we'd need to go to Odin comfortably? We win our tier 1 Einherjar's rather easily but we only get about 20 people out per run. (that doens't mean 24, 23, 26, it means 20)

Well for one, I can explain the AV reason for only 26 people showing up: IT'S NOT FUN. JoL is fun because you can kill it. AV is just a waste of XP (as our entire LS has just experienced last night) and only goofs for screwing around. I don't blame the other 5 people for not showing up with their possibly not-capped XP.

What our LS does, finally, is this one simple rule: "THERE IS NO REPEATS OF CHAMBERS" We started that after we FINALLY cleared everyone we needed through Tier 2. After that, all those people showed up. If someone couldn't make it, they had a friend bot them for the run and afk (We are a trusting LS, many people have info given out to close friends, and they all take precautions of resetting password etc). Not everyone can two-box, but it certainly helps.

The Individual perspective:
King camping in my opinion comes down to 4 items. A body, E body, D ring and Ridill. What I mean is people camp every day all day non-stop to get M legs for their PLD. Take those items out and the demand for Kings is drastically reduced. In comparison to Einherjar where you don't have D ring and Ridill, that leaves it down to A body, E body and some maginal whoop-di-do Odin items. I personally wouldn't camp kings for A body, because of salvage.

Sorry I'm a little confused. You say people only camp Kings to get M.legs?
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/...reastplate.png
This is very similar to the Ares Cuirass unless you ONLY want it for Refresh like you only want A.Body for refresh. The difference with this is that it costs:
2 Orichalcum Sheets
2 Cerberus Leather
2 Adaman Sheet
1 Scintillant Ingot
1 Rubber Harness (15k Ampoule)

Far cheaper than an Ares Cuirass, and you don't have to go through the agony of waiting many months for the drops (or days...w/e your luck is). I'm not saying it's a guaranteed drop, but you DON'T only have to do ONLY Einherjar or ONLY Salvage. Schedule Salvage every day, schedule an Einherjar right after around Prime Time where everyone is on, and that only takes about 2.5hrs of the night (100min for Salvage, 30min for Einherjar + 15min gather time), or just schedule Salvage and Einherjar on separate days.

Lets here the mental thoughts of the individual on this: "Lets get 26 people together and go beat Odin?! Oh and since 24 of those people will get virtually nothing! Odds are, I will get nothing.

Just a load of cynicism here. Odds are you will or will not get anything, sure. But the reason people do ANYTHING in this game as a group is to get the CHANCE to obtain something. 30 people do Odin, those 30 people have a CHANCE of obtaining something. Only 3-4 people walk away, yes. But that's the same with anything. 18 people do an Omega or Ultima, only 1-3 walk away with anything, but because of Limbus' simplicity, those 18 people can get something quicker than Einherjar (but that's not the argument we are discussing). If the reasoning in not doing Einherjar is because you will likely not walk away with anything, then you might as well not do any group events at all. You can bring up the "time factor" involved, but the fact Einherjar takes so little time to run, it doesn't inflict a time crunch in scheduling. Dynamis inflicts time crunching. 2.5hrs for possible worthless AF, some money, or maybe a shadow item or two if in Xarcabard.

So if you take A body, D ring and Ridill out of the picture, how appealing does Einherjar look to most people? Really worth all that for an E body or an Epeen A body? or 30 runs for some marginal ampules item? Answer to that in my opinion is no. I'd rather do salvage and so would many other groups that have wiped their hands of Einherjar. Its not that they're lazy, stupid, suck or anything else of that nature, they simply look at things and it comes down to "I'd rather be doing.... cause its just not worth the effort"

E-body rules over Ares Cuirass hands down. Unless you are fighting mobs with extremely low accuracy, there would be no reason for any job that can equip e-body to use an Ares Cuirass. I'm not going to argue about E-body and Ares Cuirass, people have their opinions, there's mine. Send me PMs if you want to argue that issue.

The amount of time needed to obtain Salvage items is about on par with Einherjar items. But like I said, you DONT have to ONLY choose one event. That's the beauty of Einherjar. It's short and simple.

[Jaybar]

Its probably easier to beat Odin than a Wing 3 Einherjar.

It is. Wing 3 rooms are random to the point where your chances to win can be almost 0. Then there's also the easier ones. TG is rather nicely equipped, and we still had to make lots of attempts at Wing 3 rooms til we finally had the Odin clearance. Wings 1 & 2 are fine how they are, Wing 3 I can understand needing more consitancy and/or scaling. As you suspected, it's easier than Odin which shouldn't be the case.

Our first Tier 3's we plowed through 2 in a row. But then we got nailed 2x in a row with bad runs. Our first was a Draguar and Soulflayer double wave. We were doing ok with the Soulflayers, but someone made the mistake of walking into blood aggro range and we wiped. The 2nd was our first time against Dvergr, and no one had a good idea at that time how to kill it (We know we had to kite him away, but our kiter didn't do a good job and we wiped after 5 demons).

I'm not sure of the gear status of Jaybar's LS, so I can't comment on that.

I know Elipse kind of wanted to know, too. A lot of us, I will estimate maybe 70%, have been in endgame for over 2 or 3 years, and that means sky/sea/HNMs too. A lot of them joined with good gear (pre-salvage, and none had any or a lot of Limbus items), the typical good sky gear, a few ground HNM gear (Only 1 Ridill [rng] and 0 d.rings and relics). Over the year we've been together we've improved immensely. A lot of us split up into groups to work on salvage to further increase our strength as a LS (and has proven very positive). Along with doing all of that, we managed to still do Einherjar. I will say we are well-equipped, but we are also very well-knowledgeable of our jobs and our surroundings (A sub-par RDM can perform just as well as a very well-equipped RDM in Einherjar). I will say that our LS was able to handle a 22-24 person Tier 3 because of our gear and what have you, but if we had 5 or 8 more people, we would have been perfect.

10 runs less for a guarenteed item for everyone who participates is alot more time that it looks. Figure that's 5 weeks less needed than speculated. Yes, the 2.5 months to get enough Ampoules is a long time, but during that time you also have a chace at abjurations (albeit a very low chance). They should increase the drop rate to ~25%. That way the abjurations stay rare, but not to the point where you never see one. Or maybe start with tier 1 drop rate the same, then increase the drop rate noticably as you advance tiers.

I fully agree with the drop rate. I have agreed with increased early abj drop rates from the beginning. People just don't seem interested in dedicating a certain time slot to run an event every 3 days.

[Elipse]

I'll offer two perspectives on this. An LS leaders perspective and then an individual one.

LS Leader:
Our LS does not do kings, we have no desire to do kings. As such we can keep a solid LS size in the 35 player range to basically win every single event in the game except Einherjar. We do Sky, Sea, Limbus, Dynamis, Bv2's blah blah.. you get the point.

Realistically speaking, an LS with 30-35 players is not going to get everyone on for a run. Our average event attendance for everything we do is in the 18-20 player range. When I planned an AV attempt we got 26 people to show up (no pop). So at best when planning a run for something super exciting like AV I got 26 people out. As far as I know thats about right for what we'd need to go to Odin comfortably? We win our tier 1 Einherjar's rather easily but we only get about 20 people out per run. (that doens't mean 24, 23, 26, it means 20)

Well for one, I can explain the AV reason for only 26 people showing up: IT'S NOT FUN. JoL is fun because you can kill it. AV is just a waste of XP (as our entire LS has just experienced last night) and only goofs for screwing around. I don't blame the other 5 people for not showing up with their possibly not-capped XP.

What our LS does, finally, is this one simple rule: "THERE IS NO REPEATS OF CHAMBERS" We started that after we FINALLY cleared everyone we needed through Tier 2. After that, all those people showed up. If someone couldn't make it, they had a friend bot them for the run and afk (We are a trusting LS, many people have info given out to close friends, and they all take precautions of resetting password etc). Not everyone can two-box, but it certainly helps.

The Individual perspective:
King camping in my opinion comes down to 4 items. A body, E body, D ring and Ridill. What I mean is people camp every day all day non-stop to get M legs for their PLD. Take those items out and the demand for Kings is drastically reduced. In comparison to Einherjar where you don't have D ring and Ridill, that leaves it down to A body, E body and some maginal whoop-di-do Odin items. I personally wouldn't camp kings for A body, because of salvage.

Sorry I'm a little confused. You say people only camp Kings to get M.legs?
http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/...reastplate.png
This is very similar to the Ares Cuirass unless you ONLY want it for Refresh like you only want A.Body for refresh. The difference with this is that it costs:
2 Orichalcum Sheets
2 Cerberus Leather
2 Adaman Sheet
1 Scintillant Ingot
1 Rubber Harness (15k Ampoule)

Far cheaper than an Ares Cuirass, and you don't have to go through the agony of waiting many months for the drops (or days...w/e your luck is). I'm not saying it's a guaranteed drop, but you DON'T only have to do ONLY Einherjar or ONLY Salvage. Schedule Salvage every day, schedule an Einherjar right after around Prime Time where everyone is on, and that only takes about 2.5hrs of the night (100min for Salvage, 30min for Einherjar + 15min gather time), or just schedule Salvage and Einherjar on separate days.

[quote:2v8p3mqk]
Lets here the mental thoughts of the individual on this: "Lets get 26 people together and go beat Odin?! Oh and since 24 of those people will get virtually nothing! Odds are, I will get nothing.

Just a load of cynicism here. Odds are you will or will not get anything, sure. But the reason people do ANYTHING in this game as a group is to get the CHANCE to obtain something. 30 people do Odin, those 30 people have a CHANCE of obtaining something. Only 3-4 people walk away, yes. But that's the same with anything. 18 people do an Omega or Ultima, only 1-3 walk away with anything, but because of Limbus' simplicity, those 18 people can get something quicker than Einherjar (but that's not the argument we are discussing). If the reasoning in not doing Einherjar is because you will likely not walk away with anything, then you might as well not do any group events at all. You can bring up the "time factor" involved, but the fact Einherjar takes so little time to run, it doesn't inflict a time crunch in scheduling. Dynamis inflicts time crunching. 2.5hrs for possible worthless AF, some money, or maybe a shadow item or two if in Xarcabard.

So if you take A body, D ring and Ridill out of the picture, how appealing does Einherjar look to most people? Really worth all that for an E body or an Epeen A body? or 30 runs for some marginal ampules item? Answer to that in my opinion is no. I'd rather do salvage and so would many other groups that have wiped their hands of Einherjar. Its not that they're lazy, stupid, suck or anything else of that nature, they simply look at things and it comes down to "I'd rather be doing.... cause its just not worth the effort"

E-body rules over Ares Cuirass hands down. Unless you are fighting mobs with extremely low accuracy, there would be no reason for any job that can equip e-body to use an Ares Cuirass. I'm not going to argue about E-body and Ares Cuirass, people have their opinions, there's mine. Send me PMs if you want to argue that issue.

The amount of time needed to obtain Salvage items is about on par with Einherjar items. But like I said, you DONT have to ONLY choose one event. That's the beauty of Einherjar. It's short and simple.[/quote:2v8p3mqk]

I either don't write clearly or you don't read very well.

The part you quoted about M legs. I meant LS's don't camp for that. Typo.

The Shadow body you listed has "Regen" Not "Refresh". This kills all the rest of the Ares vs Shadow conversation. My LS also got 6 Ares body 35's to drop in a couple month period. While we're talking about it, I wasn't saying Ares was a replacement for E body. I don't remember saying that at all. What I was saying was, after you take Abody, D ring and Ridill out of the picture the only thing Einherjar replaces in terms of "Why LS's camp kings day in day out" is E body (I was saying it was the only abj of serious value here without a better alternative elsewhere)

What I wrote before from the individual perspective isn't my thoughts, its what I "think" is the thoughts of the people who say "fuck einherjar its not worth it.". I was trying to explain to this group of people why anyone whos not uber insane relic'd and hardcore 10 hours a day playing, would think this event has a weak reward/effort ratio.

They would think, I have 3 hours to play tonight, I can go to salvage and get a serious shot at something or go to Einherjar for nearly 0 rewards. If you want to pull in the limbus example you'd have to keep in mind that 26 people can pull in 1 omega a run. So basically 4 omegas a month. If you compare it without any AF+1 items or coins limbus is a better value in terms of time.

Yes yes, you can do both. Doesn't mean everyone will see value in doing that. If you have nothing else to do with your time, like me.. then einherjar is great... not because its great but because you really have nothing else to do. So just think of more than the hardcore and think of the rest of the community.

[Aldaris]

Not sure if I missed it, but when is the interview?

[Elipse]

Its probably easier to beat Odin than a Wing 3 Einherjar.

It is. Wing 3 rooms are random to the point where your chances to win can be almost 0. Then there's also the easier ones. TG is rather nicely equipped, and we still had to make lots of attempts at Wing 3 rooms til we finally had the Odin clearance. Wings 1 & 2 are fine how they are, Wing 3 I can understand needing more consitancy and/or scaling. As you suspected, it's easier than Odin which shouldn't be the case.

Our first Tier 3's we plowed through 2 in a row. But then we got nailed 2x in a row with bad runs. Our first was a Draguar and Soulflayer double wave. We were doing ok with the Soulflayers, but someone made the mistake of walking into blood aggro range and we wiped. The 2nd was our first time against Dvergr, and no one had a good idea at that time how to kill it (We know we had to kite him away, but our kiter didn't do a good job and we wiped after 5 demons).

I'm not sure of the gear status of Jaybar's LS, so I can't comment on that.

I know Elipse kind of wanted to know, too. A lot of us, I will estimate maybe 70%, have been in endgame for over 2 or 3 years, and that means sky/sea/HNMs too. A lot of them joined with good gear (pre-salvage, and none had any or a lot of Limbus items), the typical good sky gear, a few ground HNM gear (Only 1 Ridill [rng] and 0 d.rings and relics). Over the year we've been together we've improved immensely. A lot of us split up into groups to work on salvage to further increase our strength as a LS (and has proven very positive). Along with doing all of that, we managed to still do Einherjar. I will say we are well-equipped, but we are also very well-knowledgeable of our jobs and our surroundings (A sub-par RDM can perform just as well as a very well-equipped RDM in Einherjar). I will say that our LS was able to handle a 22-24 person Tier 3 because of our gear and what have you, but if we had 5 or 8 more people, we would have been perfect.

[quote:1887zqkv]
10 runs less for a guarenteed item for everyone who participates is alot more time that it looks. Figure that's 5 weeks less needed than speculated. Yes, the 2.5 months to get enough Ampoules is a long time, but during that time you also have a chace at abjurations (albeit a very low chance). They should increase the drop rate to ~25%. That way the abjurations stay rare, but not to the point where you never see one. Or maybe start with tier 1 drop rate the same, then increase the drop rate noticably as you advance tiers.

I fully agree with the drop rate. I have agreed with increased early abj drop rates from the beginning. People just don't seem interested in dedicating a certain time slot to run an event every 3 days.[/quote:1887zqkv]

Btw, sorry to come across arguementative. My last post I had people talking in my ear and I was rushing out the door. Over all everything I said may not be perfect or correct but I just mean I think its out of wack compared to other FFXI events.

Thanks for all the info, I do appreciate it. It gives me some hope that all we need to do is add a few bodies and we have a shot at Odin. I'm not a big fan of growing the LS but its nice to know that 23 has a shot without relics as long as everyones experienced and on the ball. I thought that it was "30 or you're screwed" type of thing that people have mentioned here and there.

[Valisk]

What I was saying was, after you take Abody, D ring and Ridill out of the picture the only thing Einherjar replaces in terms of "Why LS's camp kings day in day out" is E body (I was saying it was the only abj of serious value here without a better alternative elsewhere)

Wouldnt it be easier to just say Einherjar doesn't address ABody, DRing, and Ridill?

I either don't write clearly

[Elipse]

What I was saying was, after you take Abody, D ring and Ridill out of the picture the only thing Einherjar replaces in terms of "Why LS's camp kings day in day out" is E body (I was saying it was the only abj of serious value here without a better alternative elsewhere)

Wouldnt it be easier to just say Einherjar doesn't address ABody, DRing, and Ridill?

I either don't write clearly

It does have A body.

I was saying A body isn't a powerful enough piece beyond "epeen" to justify the work involved in einherjar to get it. Aka Einherjar needs an adjustment. Either more drops or less effort.