Blu back-up tanking Proto-Ultima

[Meian]

Before we get into the flaming, let's see the possibility please. I plan to try this out on the next Proto-Ultima we do

/nin obviously

~Enmity~
Weapons: Macuahuitl +1 (Dual wield)
Head: Walhara Turban
Body: Homam Corazza
Back: Resentment Cape
Neck: Harmonia's Torque
Hands: Homam Manopolas
Waist: Warwolf Belt
Ear1: ??? (no Loq. yet)
Ear2: Ethereal Earring
Ring1: Mermaid
Ring2: Bomb Queen Ring
Legs: Homam Cosciales
Feet: Marine M Boots (no Homam yet)
Ammo: ???

+21 Enmity (no merits)


~Spells for Enmity~
Actinic Burst
Exuviation (no diffusion)
Temporal Shift
Magic Fruit (healing obviously = enmity)
Jettatura (I don't know about this one yet)


~Anti-Citadel Buster~
Listing the actual pieces to go against it:
Weapon: Pluto's Staff (+20 Light)
***Head: Flawless Ribbon (+30 Light)
Back: Resentment Cape (-5%)
Ears: Coral/Merman Earrings (-1%/-2% each)
***OR Arte del sol's for the 12 Light on each?
Rings: Merman Rings (-4% each)
Waist: Lieutenant's Sash (-2%)

Magic Defense Bonus trait via spell combination + Saline Coat (+50 MDEF at start)

Potentially... could reach up to +50 Light and -17% to -19% Magic Damage or +74 Light and -15% Magic Damage (if using Arte del sol's instead of Coral/Merman earrings)



Again, this is back-up tank testing only for now.

Any input or advice on making this work. I hope I listed everything.


***EDIT: Forgot to add my Flawless Ribbon

[Suiram]

There was a thread about BLU tanking recently in Newbie advice you should search for, but that looks fine, assuming you don't have a belt with haste, otherwise you'd use that too. Saline Coat is going to be too much MP to use continually but set it for CB and start casting after "10...." Depending on how much MP/tick you get from support using all those spells including Temp Shift and Jettaturra might be an MP burden too, so maybe use one or the other, you shouldn't have problems holding hate if you take one out, Jettaturra is less MP for the same hate, but Temp Shift will actually stun so up to you which to use if you have to pick one.

That other thread also has suggestions for gear, probably better to just check that out because someone made a pretty comprehensive list you can just look at. You don't need to just be a backup tank either but I get that you are maybe uneasy about trying it out.

Edit: Forgot Blank Gaze but Linkthedeme caught it, and it's mentioned in that other thread as well.
Edit 2: Other thread here: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=29223

[LinktheDeme]

wrong section normally this kind of stuff goes in newbie section you're also gonna want to probably set blank gaze for enmity. Check kanicans live journal if you need help figuring out how much each blue mage spell gives enmity wise. Also for earrings eris are always an option.
http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

[Meian]

Ahh you mean this one viewtopic.php?f=31&t=29223&p=907411&hilit=blu+tank #p907411

Thanks for that got some decent info from it and from that livejournal link about enmity. Although, the old topic doesn't mention too much gear specifically for Proto-Ultima or if this has been successfully pulled off without a problem.

As for Jettatura, doesn't the enmity only kick in if he is facing you (since the "no effect" message when he is facing elsewhere). Same question but applied for Blank Gaze also.

Oh right, yes I do have Swift Belt. I didn't mention the Haste gear for recast on Utsusemi. Would Swift Belt be preferred over Warwolf then in general or just for recast?

[LinktheDeme]

Ahh you mean this one viewtopic.php?f=31&t=29223&p=907411&hilit=blu+tank #p907411

Thanks for that got some decent info from it and from that livejournal link about enmity. Although, the old topic doesn't mention too much gear specifically for Proto-Ultima or if this has been successfully pulled off without a problem.

As for Jettatura, doesn't the enmity only kick in if he is facing you (since the "no effect" message when he is facing elsewhere). Same question but applied for Blank Gaze also.

Oh right, yes I do have Swift Belt. I didn't mention the Haste gear for recast on Utsusemi. Would Swift Belt be preferred over Warwolf then in general or just for recast?

no the enmity kicks in either way.

[Royal]

wrong section normally this kind of stuff goes in newbie section you're also gonna want to probably set blank gaze for enmity. Check kanicans live journal if you need help figuring out how much each blue mage spell gives enmity wise. Also for earrings eris are always an option.
http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

I like how people say that in this topic but nothing about it in the one asking about a setup for Steel Cyclone. At least this one is a little more interesting than that.

[Meian]

Question about Magic Fruit and it's enmity.

If say I take off my Enmity gear for MND (which includes -enmity...)

Yigit Turban
Errant Houpl
Tamas Ring
Errant Slops
P. Rope
Errant Feet
Rainbow Cape
Yigit Hands
Promise Badge



Pretty much all the enmity+ is off and nearly the same amount of -enmity in place of it just to be able to cure higher with Magic Fruit.

I am pretty sure the lower amount of HP I heal back with the enmity gear would be better than putting on the above gear to heal for more?

Currently, I am doing about ******299-ish Magic Fruit with enmity gear on.

*****EDIT: MEant to say 299-ish Magic Fruit. -4 MND because of Marine M Boots.

[Suiram]

Well first of all, 199 sounds unreasonably low, are you sure that's it? I can't log in at the moment to check but 199 feels like salvage with no MND cell, I really don't see how you get so little. But anyhow, to attempt to answer your question, since you're going from enmity +21 to enmity -11, you'd need I think to generate 36% more enmity (1.21/.89) from the new magic fruit value for it to exceed the enmity generated in your regular set (of course, there may be a mix-match which is ideal). Maybe someone else can answer if the hate from cures scales linearly, for instance if healing for 36% more will generate 36% more hate? In which case I guess your magic fruits would need to be 270+ in the new set, so I guess check out how much it is, and also doublecheck that it really is 199 in your other gear.

Also, nothing wrong with Newbie Advice forums, some threads (admittedly including this one) do probably better belong there, but it's not a knock on the thread itself or the person posting it.

[Ashira]

wrong section normally this kind of stuff goes in newbie section

How about we stop backseat modding and let mods decide if a question deserves to be moved to the standard section.

Frankly, I think it stays here. It is something beyond standard play. And especially should remain here if he returns to tell us how he did in the fight, be it success or failure.

[Nicholette]

If you want good solid holdable hate merit diffusion and hit the diffusion exhuviation button. It has near the hate generation of Invincible and adds CE which Invincible doesn't.

[Suiram]

Even if you have Diffusion meritted, and even if you were main-tanking rather than backup tanking, I still wouldn't use it. Save it for if you die to an unlucky Wire Cutter or for when hate gets wonky after Citidel Busters and you want to move fast up the hate list. You won't need it to establish hate from the start of the fight.

[VZX]

How much HP you took from CB after saline coat sui?

[Suiram]

I don't remember exactly because last time I fought Ultima was a month or so ago, but it doesn't really take me dangerously low, even though I have a pretty shitty mdef build atm unless I can get people loan me stuff. ;x But that notwithstanding I've only died to one CB and it was the last one of the most recent Ultima I fought because the BRD had died so I had MP issues at the very end and didn't save enough MP for Saline Coat, and I didn't realize it until too late.

[ringthree]

~Spells for Enmity~
Actinic Burst
Exuviation (no diffusion)
Temporal Shift
Magic Fruit (healing obviously = enmity)
Jettatura (I don't know about this one yet)

I think the problem that you will have is that even with an assumed 44% haste (gear and magic) you will have very long recast times on your hate spells. Actinic Burst and Exuviation are 1 minute recasts, while Temporal Shift and Jettatura have two minute recasts. Also, you will need to consider that these spells have a relatively high MP cost, but with an assumed 6 MP refresh per tic (Refresh, Ballad II and Auto-refresh), you will probably need to find some other spells to compliment these, but this is definitely a good start and I could see it as a viable tank in a lot of instances. Tossing in a good amount of Headbutt might also help.

In fact after doing some research into this, I think that there may be a variety of situations in which a BLU/NIN could tank many different end-game mobs. I don't know much about BLU point allocation, and the traits that are available to them, but it seems they could have close to the same potential as RDM/NIN and maybe even NIN/DRK. The problem will be maximizing spell points to achieve the best combination of job traits and hate gaining spells. I am definitely going to take a deeper look into this.

[Meian]

Well first of all, 199 sounds unreasonably low, are you sure that's it? I can't log in at the moment to check but 199 feels like salvage with no MND cell, I really don't see how you get so little. But anyhow, to attempt to answer your question, since you're going from enmity +21 to enmity -11, you'd need I think to generate 36% more enmity (1.21/.89) from the new magic fruit value for it to exceed the enmity generated in your regular set (of course, there may be a mix-match which is ideal). Maybe someone else can answer if the hate from cures scales linearly, for instance if healing for 36% more will generate 36% more hate? In which case I guess your magic fruits would need to be 270+ in the new set, so I guess check out how much it is, and also doublecheck that it really is 199 in your other gear.

Also, nothing wrong with Newbie Advice forums, some threads (admittedly including this one) do probably better belong there, but it's not a knock on the thread itself or the person posting it.

299 I meant to say, sorry about that.

[evilpaul]

The breath spells seemed to have pissed Ultima off plenty my last Ultima run somebody came BLU/NIN to. I had filters on though, so I couldn't say how much they were doing damage-wise.

[Meian]

The breath spells seemed to have pissed Ultima off plenty my last Ultima run somebody came BLU/NIN to. I had filters on though, so I couldn't say how much they were doing damage-wise.

Breath spells are fairly expensive MP-wise. But what about Poison Breath to generate enmity also? From what I understood, the MP cost for the damage it does is very good. Then again, I haven't tried breath spells on Ultima as of yet.

[Naramaska]

~Spells for Enmity~
Actinic Burst
Exuviation (no diffusion)
Temporal Shift
Magic Fruit (healing obviously = enmity)
Jettatura (I don't know about this one yet)

I think the problem that you will have is that even with an assumed 44% haste (gear and magic) you will have very long recast times on your hate spells. Actinic Burst and Exuviation are 1 minute recasts, while Temporal Shift and Jettatura have two minute recasts. Also, you will need to consider that these spells have a relatively high MP cost, but with an assumed 6 MP refresh per tic (Refresh, Ballad II and Auto-refresh), you will probably need to find some other spells to compliment these, but this is definitely a good start and I could see it as a viable tank in a lot of instances. Tossing in a good amount of Headbutt might also help.

In fact after doing some research into this, I think that there may be a variety of situations in which a BLU/NIN could tank many different end-game mobs. I don't know much about BLU point allocation, and the traits that are available to them, but it seems they could have close to the same potential as RDM/NIN and maybe even NIN/DRK. The problem will be maximizing spell points to achieve the best combination of job traits and hate gaining spells. I am definitely going to take a deeper look into this.

We (re: myself and a friend) have thought about this at length, and just about the only barrier we can come up with for a BLU to tank is the raw MP consumption. If you were to alternate abilities on a ~25 second flash-esque self timer and spam self-heals, you could basically play it like a PLD, but with a few more tricks up its sleeve such as Diffusion/Exuviation, Stoneskinga, etc.

[Jeny]

~Spells for Enmity~
Actinic Burst
Exuviation (no diffusion)
Temporal Shift
Magic Fruit (healing obviously = enmity)
Jettatura (I don't know about this one yet)

I think the problem that you will have is that even with an assumed 44% haste (gear and magic) you will have very long recast times on your hate spells. Actinic Burst and Exuviation are 1 minute recasts, while Temporal Shift and Jettatura have two minute recasts. Also, you will need to consider that these spells have a relatively high MP cost, but with an assumed 6 MP refresh per tic (Refresh, Ballad II and Auto-refresh), you will probably need to find some other spells to compliment these, but this is definitely a good start and I could see it as a viable tank in a lot of instances. Tossing in a good amount of Headbutt might also help.

In fact after doing some research into this, I think that there may be a variety of situations in which a BLU/NIN could tank many different end-game mobs. I don't know much about BLU point allocation, and the traits that are available to them, but it seems they could have close to the same potential as RDM/NIN and maybe even NIN/DRK. The problem will be maximizing spell points to achieve the best combination of job traits and hate gaining spells. I am definitely going to take a deeper look into this.

We (re: myself and a friend) have thought about this at length, and just about the only barrier we can come up with for a BLU to tank is the raw MP consumption. If you were to alternate abilities on a ~25 second flash-esque self timer and spam self-heals, you could basically play it like a PLD, but with a few more tricks up its sleeve such as Diffusion/Exuviation, Stoneskinga, etc.

Let me do it, Nara.

[Suiram]

Breath spells cost too much MP as someone stated, plus you'd be relying on them landing for full damage. Diamondhide is also not helpful enough to warrant the MP cost or the time spent casting it. I don't mean to sound like I'm talking out of my ass either, since November I've been fortunate enough to tank a few things on BLU, not a lot, just a couple Khimairas, a Cerberus, Ultima, and a couple short-lived AV attempts. Although I understand the basics of tanking and have what I think is some pretty good gear for it, I'm fairly light in the experience department (my first time, on Khimaira, I think I cast Ichi over Ni like 8 times ;x) but as I've suggested in a couple other places, I really do believe that a BLU tank, in the hands of someone more practiced (and hopefully myself when I get more practice) would likely be equal or superior to an equally skilled/geared RDM or NIN, at least for the fights that are amenable to it.

Some fights aren't, for instance I doubt BLU would be desirable tanking Fafnir/Nidhogg, since you do want to use two of Actinic Burst, Jettatura or Temp Shift to be effective. Likewise I don't think BLU (BLU/NIN anyway) is really cut out for kited fights or JoL, since again half of your best hate tools have a pretty short range. But any situation where you would otherwise use a PLD/NIN to straight tank an HNM that doesn't have any surrounding adds, an experienced BLU tank would be a more than adequate replacement for a PLD, if that's what you happen to have available and are so inclined. Also, as I've tried to explain here and other places several times, Diffusion-Exuviation is epeen hate, but it isn't necessary in the slightest, it's only really helpful in situations where you need to build hate quickly, such as when you arrive late to a mob that's been held, or your die or otherwise get hate-reset midfight.