A small request: Kaeko's AV strategy needing critique~!

[Royal]

I was just wondering if shadowbind would work if the rangers were lower level? Like right when they get it at 40. Might be easier to get that many rangers if they didn't all have to be 75.

[ringthree]

Regen when out of spawn point?

There was a report about AV having massive regen outside the 30' spawn point. I personally believe that is not true and base the strategy around that assumption. I haven't fought AV recently so I cannot say 100% for sure either way; HOWEVER, I'm sure most old school BGers remember the original kill strategies - most kills were done outside the spawn point area. I have personally be a part of a kill attempt and we did break regen outside the spawn point. Unless SE ninja patched this, I seriously doubt regen jumps outside 30'.

I do not know if you are specifically reading my responses, but I have addressed both of your lines of reasoning here.

My assumption is that it was indeed ninja patched with the Draw-in. I have already stated this twice. When AV was ninja patched SE added Draw-in, they changed it so that it couldn't be locked by killing Wynavs, and it in all likelihood added the outside of spawn point Regen.

Consider the circumstances of the changes; SE was observing AV kills in manners that they did not believe was legitimate. The changes were made to ensure that AV would be fought in the manner that they dictated. It was easily observable that Draw-in was added because AV just pulled in everyone through the Wall of Justice, and it was observable that killing the Wynavs didn't lock it any longer, because of all the rape that it was laying down. Given these circumstances it would understandable that increased Regen on AV might be missed. The increased Regen outside of spawn area follows very logically with this idea. The Wynav fix was just that, it was probably an error in programming that was resolved. Draw-in and presumably the high Regen outside of spawn area were added to prevent any further terrain exploitation. Draw-in would prevent people from hiding in places it could not path to, while the high Regen outside of spawn would prevent similar but yet unforeseen exploits.

I have to question at this point when you last participated in an attempted AV kill that would have tested if it did or did not have the high Regen outside of it's spawn area. It seems to me that your reference to the location of the kills seems to indicate that it was before the ninja patch because there have been no kills since the ninja patch. Your appeal to the memories of those kills before the ninja patch begs the question of that very patch, which was designed by SE to control the conditions under which AV could be defeated. Have you observed AV recently when it has been pulled out of the spawn area? It seems that you are much too quick to dismiss the observations of many different LS's on many different servers, just because you do not believe it to be the case. There are at least some observations of this phenomenon, and any strategy that involves a scenario in which this might be a factor would need to at least consider it, definitely not flippantly dismiss it. Perhaps there is a way to lock this high regen, perhaps it is not consistant, perhaps it is a reactionary ability to some other stimulus, and perhaps you are correct and it doesn't exist. But formulating a strategy should at least address some of the major concerns involved with it instead of just simply disregarding it

I believe that SE intends for us to fight AV straight up, in the area that it spawns. If for no other reason, Kaeko's strategy will be useful for determining the existence of this high Regen, what causes it and if there is a way to deal with it.

These are just my thoughts on the potentiality of the high Regen causing problems. I believe there are still other problems, but this is just in response to what you have addressed so far.

[Gergall]

I left this as a comment in the LJ:

"Another thing that you have to be ready for is when AV uses Virelai on alliance members and they go straight for the WHMs."

Given everything else that's going on, this would not be insurmountable. But if you neglect to consider it, it could break you.

wouldn't it only do that on the person who's top on its hate list? i'd imagine it's more likely AV would SV and never get a chance to cast, same as meteor.

Something will go wrong eventually. WHMs reaching the enmity cap has already been mentioned. Kaeko readily admits that Meteor could go off on a DD, but the WHMs should be out of range.

Hate won't always be glued to the two WHMs; they are more like a last line of defense that keeps AV from ever resetting.

[Kaeko]

I think even with the mules you might not need to rely on shadowbind, if you can get the timing down. Depending upon how far you can space a WHM from the mule on their side that keeps the mule within 25' of AV's path to him/her, you might be able to time cures so that they land in that interval. Then if timing screws up and a WHM does take damage, you can then default to shadowbinds when he reaches the other side to give the WHM who lost hate enough time to cure 5 the mule as much as is needed to restore balance. The only issue in that case is determining how much is enough without going over, since I'm fairly sure that /assist during a bind won't adequately report who the target will be after bind wears.

I was thinking about this as well. If you are a windower user, you can keep yourself in fillmode 1 (wireframe) to see whats going on on the other side. Then place some mules or just bodies at the 25' from target fringe area or at the spot where you have to start casting at to have it hit in the fringe area (25').

[Kaeko]

Regen when out of spawn point?

There was a report about AV having massive regen outside the 30' spawn point. I personally believe that is not true and base the strategy around that assumption. I haven't fought AV recently so I cannot say 100% for sure either way; HOWEVER, I'm sure most old school BGers remember the original kill strategies - most kills were done outside the spawn point area. I have personally be a part of a kill attempt and we did break regen outside the spawn point. Unless SE ninja patched this, I seriously doubt regen jumps outside 30'.

I do not know if you are specifically reading my responses, but I have addressed both of your lines of reasoning here.

My assumption is that it was indeed ninja patched with the Draw-in. I have already stated this twice. When AV was ninja patched SE added Draw-in, they changed it so that it couldn't be locked by killing Wynavs, and it in all likelihood added the outside of spawn point Regen.

Consider the circumstances of the changes; SE was observing AV kills in manners that they did not believe was legitimate. The changes were made to ensure that AV would be fought in the manner that they dictated. It was easily observable that Draw-in was added because AV just pulled in everyone through the Wall of Justice, and it was observable that killing the Wynavs didn't lock it any longer, because of all the rape that it was laying down. Given these circumstances it would understandable that increased Regen on AV might be missed. The increased Regen outside of spawn area follows very logically with this idea. The Wynav fix was just that, it was probably an error in programming that was resolved. Draw-in and presumably the high Regen outside of spawn area were added to prevent any further terrain exploitation. Draw-in would prevent people from hiding in places it could not path to, while the high Regen outside of spawn would prevent similar but yet unforeseen exploits.

I have to question at this point when you last participated in an attempted AV kill that would have tested if it did or did not have the high Regen outside of it's spawn area. It seems to me that your reference to the location of the kills seems to indicate that it was before the ninja patch because there have been no kills since the ninja patch. Your appeal to the memories of those kills before the ninja patch begs the question of that very patch, which was designed by SE to control the conditions under which AV could be defeated. Have you observed AV recently when it has been pulled out of the spawn area? It seems that you are much too quick to dismiss the observations of many different LS's on many different servers, just because you do not believe it to be the case. There are at least some observations of this phenomenon, and any strategy that involves a scenario in which this might be a factor would need to at least consider it, definitely not flippantly dismiss it. Perhaps there is a way to lock this high regen, perhaps it is not consistant, perhaps it is a reactionary ability to some other stimulus, and perhaps you are correct and it doesn't exist. But formulating a strategy should at least address some of the major concerns involved with it instead of just simply disregarding it

I believe that SE intends for us to fight AV straight up, in the area that it spawns. If for no other reason, Kaeko's strategy will be useful for determining the existence of this high Regen, what causes it and if there is a way to deal with it.

Last time I attempted AV was the day after the Wynav killing strategy was patched. By this time, anti-WoJ Draw-In had be implemented for over 4 months. Unless it was patched after this (which I honestly don't see a reason to since no one has made any progress since), I believe Regen and range aren't related.

At this point there is very little to argue about this. Someone just has to try it and prove it either way. Based on my own experiences with it, I felt it did not matter - I have not do it in the last few weeks so I cannot tell you I'm right conclusively.

[japetus]

I believe normal spell-casting range for mobs is 30' in which case AV would have 30-45 seconds to annihilate the cure mule he's near when Shadowbound. Of course, as long as the cure mule is raised and back on the hate list before AV is on his way back again, it doesn't matter. Its just another level of coordination on an already complex strategy. If this is true, getting rid of 2/3 Shadowbinds per cycle could make this alot more feasible in terms of manpower.

Our last serious idea was very similar to this one. Instead we had 2 PLD/NIN (or NIN/BRD back when that was viable), one about 3/4 of the way up the ramp to Hu'Xzoi and the other below on the sea floor in casting range. Each would have its own support and a group of RNG would take turns Shadowbinding at the base of the ramp as AV pathed between the two tanks. We never got around to trying it as interest in AV died off. Kaeko's idea is better though in that AV can probably cast from above onto targets below the ramp or vice-versa, and the pathing time would be much shorter.

Very interesting though and I hope someone gives it a shot.

[Kaeko]

I believe normal spell-casting range for mobs is 30' in which case AV would have 30-45 seconds to annihilate the cure mule he's near when Shadowbound. Of course, as long as the cure mule is raised and back on the hate list before AV is on his way back again, it doesn't matter. Its just another level of coordination on an already complex strategy

The mule would be in range of AV casting; however, since the mule is not at the top of the hate list, AV would not attempt to cast on it. The strategy is based on having lots of potential targets in range (required to actually do anything to it), but tricking AV into only going after targets it cannot reach. The mule would be in range, but not the target of casts unless it somehow hit the top of the hate list.

Try it on like Suzaku if you Shadowbind during 2hr. Tank runs out of range to avoid spells, but someone not at the top of the list can walk in as close as they like w/o being in melee range and Suzaku won't cast on you.

[ringthree]

Last time I attempted AV was the day after the Wynav killing strategy was patched. By this time, anti-WoJ Draw-In had be implemented for over 4 months. Unless it was patched after this (which I honestly don't see a reason to since no one has made any progress since), I believe Regen and range aren't related.

Interesting, I remember them adding them at the same time, but I could easily be wrong about that. The point remains that this Regen was not witness prior to the changes to AV and it has been witnessed since that time. Several people have noted that this Regen is very high, possibly higher than its original Regen in the area. Everyone is just piecing together information, and your strategy would be excellent at testing this!

At this point there is very little to argue about this. Someone just has to try it and prove it either way. Based on my own experiences with it, I felt it did not matter - I have not do it in the last few weeks so I cannot tell you I'm right conclusively.

I concur about the argument, it will need to be tested and proof will be seen one way or the other. Really my point was not so much about the Regen as much as it was about avoiding being dismissive about potential negatives in general.

So let the testing commence! When is TK's next AV attempt going to happen? I am highly looking forward to your results!

[Doofus]

If I remember correctly, the way LB originally locked it was messing around with it in a shadowbind order, and discovered it. Then it got CFH'd and they had to start over, held overnight, found wall, 47k benediction etc. So at the very least a shadowbind order is a good way to test things with minimal risk to the alliance.

Also Ringthree, when they patched the draw-in, people just locked it and straight tanked it(LB). So I don't think they were the same patch(or maybe it was but the GMs told people to stop using it earlier? don't remember exact time frame). If you're going to base your assumptions on just watching the fights make sure you watched them all . Also, paragraphs are your friends .

Regen isn't the main issue, people can damage it just fine. It is the staying alive part that is giving people trouble. I have watched several linkshells fight AV over the past few weeks and they can get it to maybe 97% or so before they get raped.

I still believe that the key will be some cheap gimmick, and not just pure strategy like Kaeko is suggesting.

[Suiram]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that the biggest obstacle here is going to be mistimed binds and the resulting hate imbalance. Some of the stuff I'm about to say is a rehash of my earlier posts in this topic, but bear with me. First of all for this to be a non-issue you'd need 100% reliability from your binds if you use them. This will probably be tricky since AV moves so fast, if you have a slim window where he is within hate range of the mule and outside casting range of the WHM, even though shadowbind is instant it will be difficult to take into account the distance AV will move between the time the command is executed and the time the servers receive it (think running past the pots in ru'hmet).

Assuming that your binders are only 99% reliable, that one time that he is bound within casting range of a WHM, what will happen? First of all someone will need to break bind asap or else sacrifice themselves by running into melee range to change the target so that he doesn't continue to cast on the WHM until bind wears or the WHM dies. Then even if he does only manage to get one spell off, without knowing the exact CE loss as a function of damage taken, it will be impossible (or else require an inordinate amount of luck) for that WHM to get just the right amount of hate back when AV is bound on the other side, due to the /assist issues I addressed above.

I'm not sure what the best solution is for this. Maybe place another mule just inside the 30' distance to each WHM along the path? That way if he is bound inside casting range of the WHM, this will also put him in melee range of the mule (unless the bind was REALLY slow), and should (I think) immediately cast on the mule, buying the WHM 20 seconds (except during chainspell) to run further out of range, and then returning to the previous position once bind wears and AV has changed direction. Of course if he doesn't cast immediately and instead takes a swing at the mule and dies, the WHM won't have much time to get out of range. Alternatively (or additionally) maybe just investigate CE loss from damage taken so that in the above scenario the WHM will know exactly how many cures are needed to return to balance.

[ringthree]

Also Ringthree, when they patched the draw-in, people just locked it and straight tanked it(LB). So I don't think they were the same patch(or maybe it was but the GMs told people to stop using it earlier? don't remember exact time frame). If you're going to base your assumptions on just watching the fights make sure you watched them all . Also, paragraphs are your friends .

They may not have been in the same ninja patch, but it's pretty much completely irrelevant when exactly it was added, I just used that as a logical device to explain why it was observed recently but not before the time of the ninja patches. Ultimately, either this high Regen exists or it doesn't or it does under some conditions. Testing Kaeko's strategy will hopefully bare it out and I am looking forward to the results.

I hope that paragraph wasn't too long for you.

[orson]

I can't see this as being an exploit. If this is an exploit so is kiting, or anything like that. You're just using mob pathing to keep from getting hit with nasty tactics. The wall of justice is completely different. If you could trap Kirin in the corner of the porter and have it so he could not attack you then that's a glitch AKA exploit. The wall was just that, something SE never intended to work the way it did. This strategy does not break game mechanics it makes use of them.

As many people said though this would be tough to keep up I think. Over the course of the hrs that this fight would take (even if bene was lucky enough only to be seen a few times) it's very likely people would make mistakes. Ultimately though I guess it's more the benediction that really is the big problem, like you say you'd just have to get lucky (if that is possible.)

[Evelyn]

I really like the idea. CE cap issues can be worked around with regular logouts or zones, and the death of DD, as stated, won't be an issue if/when hate on the WHMs can be stabilized. Lets just hope juggling hate will go as smooth on gameday as it does on paper

[Kaeko]

I mentioned this somewhere else but I think this little change may make the entire process more viable considering the fact people mess up and there may be a lot of lag...

The hardest part about this people are saying is that the Binding has to be very precise as well as the ranges they mob is bound in. If you remove the mules and just place the WHMs at the wall, you can directly cure them without moving and this would not involve Binding. The advantage is this is much less complex - no binding in specific range and the WHMs don't need to move.

The downside is that the WHMs have to momentarily be in AV's range. Usually, I think if you slap like 3-4 WHMs on each side of the wall, AV is not going to kill 4 WHMs in a period of like 2-3 seconds that it takes for any one of the WHMs on the other side to land a cure. Even something like Soul Voice, I doubt it could seriously get off that many charms in that period (maybe 1-2). The only thing that would 1 shot people would be Meteor. This is a bit dangerous since Meteor is I think 30' from target so it would kill the WHMs on the other side of the wall too.

I saw someone mention something about 2hrs being on like a 1 minute timer. You can use this to your advantage I think by binding it between going back and forth, making sure it doesn't have Manafont active when it reaching one side of the wall.

**********

Another idea is to just use this as a holding technique. It only really requires like 2-4 RNGs in the alliance that can touch AV. Remember the WHMs don't even need to be in alliance they just need to be on hate list. You can run your normal killing techniques and then "save" your progress by holding it with this strategy. Better than reseting every time you wipe.

[Suiram]

My concern with binds is more that it seems that this strategy relies on the the WHMs always being within 400 CE of each other (or within 1000 at worst for a short period of time), and a missed bind resulting in a WHM taking damage is going to throw that off, in a way that may be unrecoverable unless the WHMs are able to quickly restore that balance. Eliminating binds by having the WHMs directly cure one another seems to skip directly to that dilemma, rather than avoid it, unless there's something I'm missing here.

[Maytag]

This is a brilliant strategy. Sure it seems tricky to pull off... but if there's even a 1% chance, it's better than the usual 100% certain wipe. And even if you could only take him to bracelet mode using this, a lot could be learned about this mob just from doing that!

[Xajii]

This is a brilliant strategy. Sure it seems tricky to pull off... but if there's even a 1% chance, it's better than the usual 100% certain wipe. And even if you could only take him to bracelet mode using this, a lot could be learned about this mob just from doing that!

This is a brilliant strategy.

brilliant

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...brilliance.jpg?

[Ashira]

Xajii, you're weird.

[Mojo]

I have no doubt that the strategy you've presented will be effective in holding AV and dealing damage to it without wiping. I don't see the 30' regen as an issue either. It either exists or it doesn't and right now it is not clear as to which it is. If the regen does exist it would be unlikely that the strategy would work, but who can say at this point. It would be worthwhile to try seeing just for that insight alone.

The lurking flaw I do see with the strategy is that it doesn't provide a stable platform for observing two hour usage. If relying on this strategy was your only plan of action, it would be pointless because of Benediction. If two hour usage is figured out, it would likely also render this strategy useless.

I'm not trying to be negative. I just think that from the video SE released, our actions obviously have a roll on defeating it. I don't think this plan would shed much insight on that.

[Teffy]

xajii that was lame until the picture...then it was just sad.