War/Dnc the tank that couldn't

[orson]

Ok, I've done some messing around with War/Dnc in Campaign. Anyone who has the sub by now probably knows how awesome it is for that. I've been discussing with a lot of people over the power of War/Dnc and whether it would be an effective tank this is some thoughts on the matter. This seems fairly self explanatory to most I'm assuming so I'm not really sure if this really belongs in advanced but it's not a question or something I've seen explained so here goes.

As such I'm using:

Main: Fort. Axe
Sub: Pole Strap
Ammo: Virtue Stone

Head: Walahra Turban - Genbu's Kabuto
Neck: Fortitude Torque
Ear1: Fowling Earring
Ear2: Brutal Earring

Body: Kirin's Osode
Hands: Dusk Gloves - Koenig Handschuhs
Ring1: Rajas Ring
Ring2: Ulthalam's Ring

Back: Amemet Mantle +1
Waist: Swift Belt
Legs: Byakko's Haidate
Feet: Amir Boots

I get approx. 170ish Curing Waltzes depending on what gear I'm wearing at the time.

This is basically what I wanted to figure out.

Fort. Axe with Brutal Earring (no merits to make things easier) equals over 100 swings you'll get 165 swings if you have a 90% acc (maybe a bit high some HNMs) that nets to 148.5 hits or 1.485 swings per round. Minne seems to me to be the better choice for Brd songs so only regular mage haste. My build is fairly standard haste gear so let's go with that amount. Delay is 504 so 17% gear + 15% haste equals approx. 343 Delay.

Fort. Axe with 32% Haste 1.485 hits every 5.7 sec. in other words with Rajas 3.73 TP and 5.21 HP every sec. (AKA average drain samba II.)

Now Rune Chopper with 25% gear +15% haste (40%) would be an average of 1.035 swings per round (ya stacking double attack without acc suck amirite?) every sec. 2.96 TP and 4.14 HP

Adding more haste would increase the advantage slightly to Rune Chopper but for all intensive proposes they are fairly equal and don't need to really be much faster then this unless you want to add a minuscule amount of HP gained through Samba.

So let's break this down into a 2 minute round because that is the stretch of recast for Samba which you'll want to maintain.

If you're tanking hopefully you can TP 100% before hand be it through Sleep Pots or an Icarus Wing (having points for Flourishes at this point isn't really important.)
Fort. Axe*, Rune Chopper**

Time 0:00 ... 100% TP - 25% Drain Samba -10% Quick/Box Step -35% Curing Waltz II = 30% TP + gain TP rates over 15 seconds (FA* = 55.95%) (RC** = 44.4%) = next total
Time 0:15 ... FA = 85.95% RC = 74.4% -10% Step -35% Waltz
Time 0:30 ... FA = 96.9% RC = 73.8% -10% Step -35% Waltz
let's skip ahead
Time 2:00 ... FA = 151.65% RC = 74.04% -25% Samba -10% step, -35% Waltz

So obviously if you're using Rune Chopper you need to have a bit more haste or skipping a couple of steps would help you maintain waltz and samba. Now I also haven't taken into account the mob hitting you which probably would bring your TP with Rune Chopper up to more than enough to maintain all casts of the abilities. Obviously there is a huge amount of variance depending on your accuracy for that reason it's probably paramount to use Sushi as food.

As you can see Retaliation isn't even needed it will only add damage and will not increase the amount cured.

Now this is arguably the best macro build for Curing Waltz. (I wouldn't want to remove virtue stones for the odds of losing a swing might be pretty big, Rajas is debatable.)

Main: Fort. Axe +7 Vit
Sub: Pole Strap
Ammo: Virtue Stone

Head: Koenig Schaller +10 Vit +10 Chr
Neck: Fortitude Torque +5 Vit
Ear1: Melody Earrings+1 +2 Chr
Ear2: Melody Earrings+1 +2 Chr (There are +3 vit and +3 chr earrings but they are from spending Einherjar Ichor so ya right)

Body: Koenig Cuirass +20 Vit +20 Chr
Hands: Koenig Handschuh +10 Vit +10 Chr
Ring1: Vit Ring +5 Vit
Ring2: Vit Ring +5 Vit

Back: Knightly Mantle +4 Vit
Waist: Corsette+1 +6 Chr
Legs: Koenig Diechlings +10 Vit +10 Chr
Feet: Koenig Schuhs +10 Vit +10 Chr

+86 Vit +70 Chr Hume Base Stats 62 Vit 63 Chr. ((281)/4+130)= 200 (Damn SE nerfing it)

So over the course of 2 minutes the War/Dnc will be able to cure themselves approx.
FA = 2025 HP, RC = 1896 HP

What does this exactly mean well it all boils down to whether or not a War/Dnc can hold hate and vs a regular HNM 2000ish HP is next to nothing over the course 2 mins. We're talking easily a HNM hits a person in that sorta gear for 200 every 3.5 sec (not really taking into account slow here or WSs or Spells) but you'd take over 6500 damage (probably more.) As it stands War/Dnc is not an effective HNM tank that's just the bottom line. As much as we want it to work apart from Faust you're very unlikely to be more efficient then a War/Nin, Pld/Nin, or Nin/War. Not to mention that some HNMs just can't be meleed. This isn't even taking into account whether or not War/Dnc could even hold hate (which is very unlikely due to the enmity lost through physical damage.)

In short War/Dnc will never be a HNM tank unless def/vit formulas are drastically changed.

[fuergrissa]

If I were considering anything/dnc it would be NIN. Aside from that it would have to be on a mob with AOE like wing so you could cure your entire pt and not just yourself. Aside from that you would still want full enmity gear rather than DD gear.

Wouldnt mind seing it tried, but would probably be very situational even if it did work. Like I said if your whole pt aint taking damage then it wont work, otherwise WAR/DNC would be like a PLD/war with only cure 2, and no shadows.

I guess it sounds a little bit too much like Im disagreeing with you even though you came to the same conclusion, that it wouldnt work well.

[Zilong]

Bloodtanking has been dead for years now, you really don't need to fucking make an announcement that a job combination that doesn't include some sort of damage blinking capability can't tank HNM, everyone with half a brain kinda realize that already.

[shinoniken]

Bloodtanking has been dead for years now, you really don't need to fucking make an announcement that a job combination that doesn't include some sort of damage blinking capability can't tank HNM, everyone with half a brain kinda realize that already.

The major deciding factor on whether or not a job combination can tank is damage mitigation. Blinking is currently the best way to do this, but that's not to say it's the only way. Spam curing one's self enough to maintain close to 100% hp would not only excellent mitigation, but also provide enough CE to to maintain hate. Warrior in itself can only generate solid VE, which, mitigation aside, is why tanking anything major isn't going to happen, where subbing dancer could potentially solve this. I'm pretty sure Orson was just trying the war/dnc theory out, and as he explained quite well, why it will not work.

[Fated]

Bloodtanking has been dead for years now, you really don't need to fucking make an announcement that a job combination that doesn't include some sort of damage blinking capability can't tank HNM, everyone with half a brain kinda realize that already.

Is that the sound of nothing in one's head?

[Minions]

Bloodtanking has been dead for years now, you really don't need to fucking make an announcement that a job combination that doesn't include some sort of damage blinking capability can't tank HNM, everyone with half a brain kinda realize that already.

Is that the sound of nothing in one's head?

The sound of adding nothing to the thread.

[shinoniken]

Bloodtanking has been dead for years now, you really don't need to fucking make an announcement that a job combination that doesn't include some sort of damage blinking capability can't tank HNM, everyone with half a brain kinda realize that already.

Is that the sound of nothing in one's head?

The sound of adding nothing to the thread.

The sound of one more quoting.

[Rocl]

Bloodtanking has been dead for years now, you really don't need to fucking make an announcement that a job combination that doesn't include some sort of damage blinking capability can't tank HNM, everyone with half a brain kinda realize that already.

Is that the sound of nothing in one's head?

The sound of adding nothing to the thread.

The sound of one more quoting.

The sound of "Stop it."

[byte]

I was waiting for this to reach BG. This whole thing is basically in response to this:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...89557&hl=en-GB


Main: Rune Chopper
Sub: Pole Strap
Ammo: Bibiki Seashell

Head: Walahra Turban
Neck: Fortitude Torque
Ear1: Ethereal Earring
Ear2: Brutal Earring

Body: Fighter's Lorica +1
Hands: Dusk Gloves
Ring1: Hercules' Ring
Ring2: Jelly Ring

Back: High Breath Mantle
Waist: Swift Belt
Legs: Byakko's Haidate
Feet: Koenig Schuhs

Thanks to OP for trying to publically shoot down an idea which is still developing and doing very well so far. As if the community needs ENCOURAGEMENT to be closed minded. Really, thank you.

"the tank that couldn't" is a little misleading it's more like "the tank that can but hasn't made it yet". Sure it doesn't have quite the same ring (or the reference) Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean you have to go out of your way to persuade the rest of the community to not agree with it.

[Koga]

It's interesting to say the least. I guess you can tank like that if you have no recourse, but being an advocate for something like this when there are much more conventional ways to tank things seems kinda a moot point. I could see the possibility of this for stuff like Sky/Basic Sea NM's. But if your showing up to JoL with a WAR/DNC tank I might think twice before helping you.

[Secksi]

Knew it was Byte.

When you gonna start "support tanking" on Tiamat with War/Whm(and eventually /Dnc) like you wouldn't shut the fuck up about in TBC for as long as you were there? They did it 3 years ago, and everyone else has since moved on, but it's still just as good as Pld/Nin and Nin/Drk now right?

Wish I still had access to the TBC site so I could post the setup exactly, I think it was War/Whm x 2, Pld/War, Rdm/Smn, Whm/Smn, Brd/Smn? Is that right Byte? The setup that could hold any HNM in the game forever!

Faust isn't an HNM, grats on using 11 people to kill it? Oh and uh does "2 WHM, 1 BRD, 1 COR for support 2 SAMs with Shikikoyo" mean that you had the Sams keep feeding you TP so that you could keep curing yourself? I see someone switching in and out of the parties but I can't really tell if it's them.

[Shuemue]

<Rocl> someone go tell that guy
<Rocl> saying WAR/DNC is the new tank
<Rocl> that hes retarded
<Rocl> and tanking Faust w/ 2 WHM 1 BRD 1 COR + 2 SAMs giving you TP for your gay faggot dances isn't an accomplishment

[Rocl]

<Rocl> someone go tell that guy
<Rocl> saying WAR/DNC is the new tank
<Rocl> that hes retarded
<Rocl> and tanking Faust w/ 2 WHM 1 BRD 1 COR + 2 SAMs giving you TP for your gay faggot dances isn't an accomplishment

What a dick, jees.

[Shuemue]

<Rocl> someone go tell that guy
<Rocl> saying WAR/DNC is the new tank
<Rocl> that hes retarded
<Rocl> and tanking Faust w/ 2 WHM 1 BRD 1 COR + 2 SAMs giving you TP for your gay faggot dances isn't an accomplishment

What a dick, jees.

Yeah, fuck that Rocl guy, always trying to shit on progress.

[byte]

Knew it was Byte.

When you gonna start "support tanking" on Tiamat with War/Whm(and eventually /Dnc) like you wouldn't shut the fuck up about in TBC for as long as you were there? They did it 3 years ago, and everyone else has since moved on, but it's still just as good as Pld/Nin and Nin/Drk now right?

Wish I still had access to the TBC site so I could post the setup exactly, I think it was War/Whm x 2, Pld/War, Rdm/Smn, Whm/Smn, Brd/Smn? Is that right Byte? The setup that could hold any HNM in the game forever!

Faust isn't an HNM, grats on using 11 people to kill it? Oh and uh does "2 WHM, 1 BRD, 1 COR for support 2 SAMs with Shikikoyo" mean that you had the Sams keep feeding you TP so that you could keep curing yourself? I see someone switching in and out of the parties but I can't really tell if it's them.

Yes but why not give yourself every possible advantage? If you could do the same with PLDs, people would. It wasn't exactly necessary though, I was infact suprised how fast the TP gain was and that I didn't need the 2nd Shikikoyo for a long time (And still didn't really need it at the time I asked for it). With the right setup, I still believe PLD/WAR (or even /NIN) and 2 WAR/WHM is the most solid hate setup on Wyrms and therefore the best for a faster kill.

However, I'm not going to argue this with people that aren't going to listen, so this is the last post I'm going to make here.

Enjoy your repetitive game with the same set ups for the same fights over and over again for years to come.

[Therin]

PLD/WAR can curve Typhoon damage to 80 per hit or less and survive indefinitely, but nice try.

[Ohemgee]

Knew it was Byte.

When you gonna start "support tanking" on Tiamat with War/Whm(and eventually /Dnc) like you wouldn't shut the fuck up about in TBC for as long as you were there? They did it 3 years ago, and everyone else has since moved on, but it's still just as good as Pld/Nin and Nin/Drk now right?

Wish I still had access to the TBC site so I could post the setup exactly, I think it was War/Whm x 2, Pld/War, Rdm/Smn, Whm/Smn, Brd/Smn? Is that right Byte? The setup that could hold any HNM in the game forever!

Faust isn't an HNM, grats on using 11 people to kill it? Oh and uh does "2 WHM, 1 BRD, 1 COR for support 2 SAMs with Shikikoyo" mean that you had the Sams keep feeding you TP so that you could keep curing yourself? I see someone switching in and out of the parties but I can't really tell if it's them.

Yes but why not give yourself every possible advantage? If you could do the same with PLDs, people would. It wasn't exactly necessary though, I was infact suprised how fast the TP gain was and that I didn't need the 2nd Shikikoyo for a long time (And still didn't really need it at the time I asked for it). With the right setup, I still believe PLD/WAR (or even /NIN) and 2 WAR/WHM is the most solid hate setup on Wyrms and therefore the best for a faster kill.

However, I'm not going to argue this with people that aren't going to listen, so this is the last post I'm going to make here.

Enjoy your repetitive game with the same set ups for the same fights over and over again for years to come.

1 NIN/DRK > 3 tanks in a wyrm setup.

Future edit: You're gay to feed it TP on the ground for it to roar.

[Koga]

<Rocl> someone go tell that guy
<Rocl> saying WAR/DNC is the new tank
<Rocl> that hes retarded
<Rocl> and tanking Faust w/ 2 WHM 1 BRD 1 COR + 2 SAMs giving you TP for your gay faggot dances isn't an accomplishment

What a dick, jees.

Yeah, fuck that Rocl guy, always trying to shit on progress.

i want irc at work.
Make a Web-App plz.

btw that rocl guy is a real jerk... so closed to ideas that have already been debunked.

[Shuemue]

i want irc at work.
Make a Web-App plz.

Do you have Firefox at work? If so, ChatZilla will do it for you, assuming your IT dept hasn't blocked ports.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/16

install that, then make a bookmark or button with this link: irc://irc.gamesurge.net/bluegartrls

[Zilong]

I don't think being able to tank a sky trigger that random RDM/NIN solo in regular basis should be the base of tanking capability, especially when you're doing it with that kind support...

With 2 WHM, 1 BRD, 1 COR and 2 SAM feeding you TP, I think even a PUP/DNC can tank that shit.