Gunslinger's Renkei Chart- Aden's chart revisited, expanded!

[Eruantalon]

Very nice work ^_^ I think the right justification looks much better and more readable.

Curious what program you used to make this? (I didn't follow the other thread ) Fireworks? Photoshop? The GIMP?

[Gunslinger]

1.7- (updated on the OP)
-Updated legend
-Adjusted spacing (text size slightly smallers, spaces between categories)
-Justified-Right Skill Levels to the left of WS name
-Added missing BLU spells:
60 Spiral Spin - Transfixion
61 Seedspray - Induration, Detonation
70 Asuran Claws - Liquefaction, Impaction


midguardian- Thanks for the suggestion. I had been avoiding it because it was a lot more work once I had the stuff typed out already ^^ lol. I did the right justification with the WS skill levels, but am not going to be adjusting the categories to the far left like you did (this is to keep it simple to update, splitting out the skill levels already doubled the fields for text). I think it's more readable now though, with the spaces and such. Hopefully everyone can still read it with the smaller font size!

Eruanalon- I do all of the work in Illustrator, except for editing raw images, which I do in photoshop (like the light/darkness skillchain picture). The rest of the art in the back I either created using the pen tool, or took a photo and live-traced it, then edited as needed.


I plan on keeping blu spells how it currently is, for the reasons listed above.

[Spira]

lol.. i realised i'd rather use my own chart than anyone elses in the end.. so i made one for myself after all.. i hope u dont mind that i took most if not all the info from your chart... cos it helped me a lot.

[Gunslinger]

lol np I just wanted to make a resource that was actually applicable to today's game, since so much has changed. I took a look at your chart, looks very nice, really clean looking! It's like a dark version of mine, I like ^^

Radec found 2 more typos in mine, which I will be fixing Monday (because I left my files at work -_-, and I'll be doing some fine-tuning on it next week.

[Spira]

haha thx.. i guess by the time we're done players will be spoilt for choice with yours, psymias and my chart being the ones that are actually up to date enough to use. after all we're all helping the community and they'll get to use whichever they feel most comfortable with..

for me its just another excuse to play with photoshop so im happy

[Altanass]

ty for chart, shrunk it and printed to A4 and it comes out perfectly, ^^; i'l need to laminate it now xD

[Rasantath]

great work. the backgrounds being a more solid colour as opposed to the pictures in aden's chart are nicer on the eyes, makes the text on top easier to read.

any chance of getting the pdf (or whatever original) so i can get a good print from it? some of the text (specifically the names of the skillchains, which are border but white inside) are hard to read when it is shrunk slightly to make it fit on a page when printed, due to the not-so-vector .png file. same thing kinda happens to the legend.

[Miraun]

Is it necessary to put 'A' next to mythic level 3 WSs?

To be fair, based upon normal WS rules, it doesn't NECESSARILLY have to be an 'A' for the mythic WSs. Since you can't go down in SC levels, you can't continue a level 3 SC with a level 2, therefore you need to do another level 3.

Just seems like a lot of redundant 'A's that don't seem necessary.


And I see no mention about cabertossing taru NINs who mijin gakure on contact continuing level 3 light!

Spoiler: show

Don't toss your tarus

And that doesn't really work... but it would be awesome if it did.

[Gunslinger]

Yeah, there's some redundancy, but a lot of it is from the original chart. In any case, it doesn't hurt anything to have it in, just a lot of "A"s as you pointed out.

Due to popular request, I've updated the OP with a new image (with corrections), a PDF copy for printing, and an 18x24" PDF for poster sizes.

[Khiinroye]

It is necessary, as there are a few occurrences where the same sequence of weaponskills do occur in the chart in a few places. It is important to signify which skillchain will actually occur when there is not an existing skillchain to continue. In all fairness, though, all weaponskills that are in the lv 3 section will have priority A somewhere in that part of the chart. For example, Spiral Hell > Stringing Pummel will be Darkness rather than Liquefaction, even though both occur in the chart.

Also, there are a few, namely Mordant Rime, Death Blossom, and Vidohunir, that are in multiple spots in the lv 3 skillchain area of the chart, and the lv 2 *will* occur over the lv 3 skillchain for those. This means that, say, Asuran Fists > Death Blossom would be Fragmentation, while Death Blossom > Asuran Fists would be Darkness. The Fragmentation section on the chart has priority A, and the Distortion section for these weaponskills has priority B. Ground Strike already works this way, so its not even a new situation.

Furthermore, the A and B are also handy for seeing that the weaponskill does have another occurrence somewhere on the chart--those that don't, like Wheeling Thrust, don't have an A/B/C for priorities. Though looking at the chart, priorities were added to Shark Bite / Dragon Kick unnecessarily, and removed from Blade: Ku in the lv 3 area.

[Gunslinger]

If anyone wants to play editor and pick all of the areas / specifics of the A/B/Cs that should be changed, I'll be happy to change it when I get some time (Khiinroye seems to have a good understanding of it!)

Until then, the chart still works pretty well, I even had a chance to bust it out the other day in a party (the reward at the end of the line for all the work, I suppose ).

[Miraun]

It is necessary, as there are a few occurrences where the same sequence of weaponskills do occur in the chart in a few places. It is important to signify which skillchain will actually occur when there is not an existing skillchain to continue. In all fairness, though, all weaponskills that are in the lv 3 section will have priority A somewhere in that part of the chart. For example, Spiral Hell > Stringing Pummel will be Darkness rather than Liquefaction, even though both occur in the chart.

My argument was NEVER the necessary nature of A versus B priority on weapon skill elements, my argument was purely about the level 3 nature of Relic Weapon skills.

Relic weapon skills CANNOT create a level 2 skillchain after a level 3 has just gone off, therefore there's no need for A versus B for level 3 skillchain properties. That was my point.


Edited to add: Fuck yeah poster sized renkei chart. I'll be the most popular kid in my apartment building. Woot

[Khiinroye]

My argument was NEVER the necessary nature of A versus B priority on weapon skill elements, my argument was purely about the level 3 nature of Relic Weapon skills.

Relic weapon skills CANNOT create a level 2 skillchain after a level 3 has just gone off, therefore there's no need for A versus B for level 3 skillchain properties. That was my point.

True. To be fair, though, you did say mythic weapon skills before, some of which do need the priority specified. Relic weapon skills are either continuation of lv 3 or a single spot in the lv 2/3 area on the skillchain chart. I guess its just for consistency with the rest of the chart as well as the part about letting people know that the weapon skill occurs elsewhere. After all, you know that the chart will eventually get to people who will barely be able to read it rather than people who will be able to make the most out of it.

Also, I'm not well versed in continuation of lv 3 skillchains via relic ws, and it is not specified on the chart: can a relic weapon skill continue a skillchain after either light or darkness, or is it only a continuation of one of the lv 3 skillchains?

Similarly, would something like relic ws > relic ws always make light or darkness? Well, I'd assume so if the attributes work out to create an initial skillchain given the priorities and the answer to the previous question. The priorities would then serve to clarify situations like Catastrophe > Tachi: Kaiten making light vs fragmentation or Tachi: Kaiten > Namas Arrow making light vs distortion. (Darkness > Light for catastrophe > Kaiten; Light > Light for Kaiten > Namas).

Note, this is on creating an initial skillchain with no previous one existing; if there were, say, Asuran Fists > Tachi: Kaiten to create fragmentation, then it would appear that using Namas Arrow to continue the skillchain would create distortion rather than light, since it is locked into the fragmentation property rather than having the light property be available. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I read the skillchain chart.

Also, if going for consistency, the B is missing for Gate of Tartarus in the distortion section (obligatory lolclaustrum)

[Slott]

If I remember right, Mandau's Mercy stroke > Mercy stroke does indeed make darkness ( I think I played around with that with Mirax while meriting a couple times). If we didn't include A and B for relic weaponskills, it would be assumed that it would be gravitation > gravitation which wouldn't work. Since the A properties do indeed work together, you can make a dark to dark chain.

This is converse to things like...evisceration > mercy stroke, which would be gravitation(evisceration) > gravitation (mercy stroke), and does not make a skill chain at all.

In addition, I'm fairly certain that you can't do Light > Dark or Dark to Light chains if using lvl 3s only. For example, Mercy stroke > Mercy stroke makes darkness. Mercy stroke > Kaiten makes frag. Kaiten > Mercy stroke does nothing.

time for edit #4!

I also believe that there are lets say... 2 levels of each skillchain lvl 3. For example, Gekko > Mercy stroke makes darkness lvl 1, and can be continued by another mercy stroke to make a lvl 2 darkness. Mercy stroke > Mercy stroke cannot be continued by yet another mercy stroke, but I've never tried that one.

Anyone that's done any testing wish to clarify that? It's been a while since I played with any of the relic weaponskill skillchain properties, and I'm going off of memory for all of this.

[Motenten]

Very nice Now if my printer was just working....

Anyway, on the priority entries, these are the ones I found:

Dragon Kick - no priority (only one entry)
Shark Bite - no priority (only one entry)

King's Justice - Fragmentation A priority [eg: Asuran Fists > King's Justice should be fragmentation, not scission]
Blade: Ku - Gravitation A priority
Tachi: Gekko - Distortion A priority


Formatting-wise, the only thing I would ask for would be an extra space before the priority letters. Right now they're kind of jammed up against the weaponskill name, especially on the Mythic weaponskills that use italics.

[Hanyoko]

Only two things stand out to me, but these could just be errors in my source.

Does Armor Piercer really have a Compression trait? I know its definatly Gravitation

And from the Properties thread:
Vidohunir A - Distortion
Vidohunir B - Fragmentation

[Gunslinger]

Hanyoko-

Vidohunir is wrong, Fragmentation is A, Distortion B. Tested and posted on the ws properties thread, Swift Blade > Vidohunir made Fragmentation, not Darkness.

That's from the other thread, I already had it the other way and corrected it once ^^; I don't have it so I can't test, but Alistaire has done the testing so I'll leave it like that for now. Armor Piercer does indeed have a compression trait, at least from the research I've done.

Motenten- Thanks for the updates! I have included them in a new version I will be uploading to the OP in just a few minutes. I liked the suggestion of the extra space with priority letters, and have implemented that as well.

1.8 changes-

-formatting with priority letter
-corrections to:

Dragon Kick - no priority (only one entry)
Shark Bite - no priority (only one entry)

King's Justice - Fragmentation A priority [eg: Asuran Fists > King's Justice should be fragmentation, not scission]
Blade: Ku - Gravitation A priority
Tachi: Gekko - Distortion A priority
Armor Piercer - Compression B priority (I think!)

If you've already printed the chart poster size or something this probably doesn't warrant a reprint, but I'll continue to update the chart as people find things.

[Alistaire]

Yeah, I was very curious whether Vidohunir > Kasha would make light or fusion as it would make a big difference @ Fafnir if I were able to get Shikikoyo from a SAM. Ended up testing it with a PLD to confirm. It's definitely Fragmentation A, Distortion B.

[Xanthe]

Regarding relic weapon skill properties, Lyramion was able to enlighten me to their exact function a little while back in a way that makes more sense. A lot of this is common knowledge, but bear with me. As we know, every weapon skill with the exception of Spirits Within, Sprit Taker, and Mystic Boon resonates with a skillchain element. Most of what we're used to is level 1 (e.g. Scission) or level 2 (e.g. Gravitation), but Relic weapon skills add level 3 (e.g. Darkness). Skillchains are formed by chaining those resonating elements (e.g. Transfixion > Scission || Distortion or Distortion > Gravitation || Darkness). One property will always resonate the same with other properties, either forming a skillchain or nothing at all. A Transfixion property followed by a Scission property will ALWAYS make Distortion, Distortion followed by Fusion will always make Fusion, Fusion followed by Fragmentation will always make Light. You can't backtrack from level 2 to level 1, but you can stay on a level as long as your pathing allows. Whenever you remain on the same level, the closing property determines the skillchain. This is the reason why the level 2 wheel (more of a bow tie really) works. With the properties of Relic weapon skills, the process is extended one level further, but level 3 properties can only resonate with each other once. Weapon skills don't matter, only their properties, and that is why priorities (A, B, C) are very important. Since this whole paragraph is rather messy, some examples below.

Impaction > Detonation || Detonation
Detonation > Compression || Gravitation
Gravitation > Fragmentation || Fragmentation
Gravitation > Distortion || Darkness
Darkness > Darkness || Darkness (one time only)

Reverberation > Induration || Induration
Induration > Reverberation || Fragmentation
Fragmentation > Distortion || Distortion
Fragmentation > Fusion || Light
Light > Light || Light (one time only)

Relic weapon skills just happen to have Light or Darkness as their A-priority elemental property. Aside from the "one time only" clause on level 3 chaining, all the same rules apply. These cases are absolutes and you are guaranteed to make the skillchains as long as your elemental priorities are all in order when picking weapon skills.

[Gunslinger]

Good explanation of them Xanthe, that was my understanding as well.

As such, any skillchain property other than light or darkness for a relic WS is Secondary, or "B"

That's why they get their own SC box on the left side, since they all chain independently to form a level 3