The "Should Tanks Blink" thread.

[Niki]

<stpt> is overrated, it should allow you to tab through

This. It could have been made much better than it actually is. For the rest i totally agree with Kaeko, good points.

[wop]

I've been refraining to post but this is getting on my nerves.
I'll address the issue one by one, starting off by Cookies mentioning PLD/RDM for Ixion in the Taru Tank thread and claims most linkshells uses /RDM on Ixion (NOT TRUE)

NEWSFLASH! Spears, WoZeus can be DODGED! In fact, our PLD's dodge those moves 90% of the fucking time.
Reason for going /RDM = I'm too dumb and stupid to avoid these moves, hence I have to eat all magical AoE's
Don't come and bullshit with me that /RDM is good for Ixion just because idiots can't dodge moves. /NIN is superior at Ixion, as some moves like Rampart stance can even be absorbed by shadows.
Just because it works for certain LS's due to availability of support (Apathy using PLD/WAR's comes to mind) doesn't mean that it's the best overall. We have 6 Aegis's in LS and we never EVER go /RDM in our 150 Ixion kills.

Next, Blinking like a christmas tree!
I've said it before, I will say it again.
If it takes me 5 extra seconds to hit hate cap, then be it. When I'm there, no matter how much you blink, a simple flash will cause the mob turn back at me.
Your argument / comparing it with melees that macro WS set is moot, as those clearly makes a difference in numbers.
You want a good comparison, I'll give you SEVERAL!

1) Being at cap hate, Blinking or NOT blinking is the same as adding +9000 MND to already capped Stoneskin.
2) Burtgang vs Excal. Tanks fucking needs the +10 enmity from Burtgang as it fucking helps him TANK BETTER. ok lets be reasonable here, Chainsaw sword vs Hauteclaire. (not going to bring in Joyeous in to complicate his little brain)
+4 Enmity is great!!!!!!!! Everyone NEEDS +4 enmity it to hit hate cap a whole 5 seconds FASTER! Lets all ditch our hauteclaires for chainsaw... /sarcasm off

Seriously, if tanks REALLY need those extra bit to push themselves to the limit, they have some serious issues.

Do yourself a favour, find a competent tank like myself or Merona and tank against our usual day to day HNM's and I can 100% assure you, there is NO difference at all in our hate holding capabilities.

I could go on and on, but you just wouldn't get it.

[isladar]

Sorry, ladies, we're still in Standard, so keep it civil.

[Izzy]

Just a quick chime in!

If you hit the fbutton immediately before you cure the tank, the blinking will not be a problem 99.9% of the time. This is FFXI, have you seriously not learned how to deal with the game design limitations yet?

[Amok]

I would personally be interested in seeing what an optimized non-blinnk switch setup looks like (similar to something Willriker proposed a few pages back, but critiqued).

I was making a little search application that you could ask to maximize a certain stat over a selected group of equipment slots for a certain job. It's been on the backburner for a while now, but I use it from time to time to answer my own set-related questions. I think that could be useful for figuring out a non-blink setup like that. Not sure how you'd go about it though. I personally would first look at the types of set you'd want in the first place (like blood tank, enmity, haste, HP+, MDT/MDB) and look at what stat is lacking the most from optimal/preferred set (that includes all slots) and try to fill in the gaps as best you can. On the other hand each of those sets probably carry different kind of weights with regards to importance. You could also do it the other way around and first lock the 5 blink slots before filling in your stats with the rest. Though you may end up with the same results in the end...

I came into this thread thinking anyone that didn't blink was lazy and didn't swap ANY gear and therefore sucked unnecessarily much at tanking. I still see plenty of DD's that have only one gear set, that don't swap for WS, mainhand Sirocco Kukri or that melee in Hecatomb Leggings cus "the slow isn't that bad" and tell me to "mind my own business" when I suggest otherwise. I dunno why the latter still happens, I think it's cus I momentarily forget past experiences of giving unrequested advice -_- Now I think I have to be more careful about making assumptions when I see a non-blinking tank.

[Neosutra]

If I had to pick a set to not swap, I think it would be:

/nin : turban, ares/haubert(depending on the support), and homam hands, legs, feet.

/war : kaiser head, Valhalla body/ares, homam hands/legs, and AF+1 feet.

Can move to baha mask for /nin when already capped on haste.

[Amok]

EDIT:
NVM, I realised the answer to my question "you can't".... pls ignore ^^

[Grey Jorildyn]

I had the lovely misfortune to read all those posts before they were edited and wow, this topic sure knows how to get people hostile. Why exactly is this such a heated debate? It's really simple.

Yes, blinking will improve your "efficiency" (loosely used as everything is situational) as you approach the hate cap. Thereafter, the effect is unseen unless you are losing large amounts of enmity, usually due to damage, which causes a significant enough dive that the extra enmity you would swap into helps you regain it faster than doing otherwise.

Since you spend the majority of battletime at or very close to the hate cap, and therefore in a position where all that extra enmity does not benefit you as much as it does during your hate-building phase, gear swapping loses (most) of its utility.

The way I see tanking is in phases actually, and it's like this:
----------
Phase1: Hate building--where those enmity swaps are going to help. Only with a significant amount of additional enmity are you going to shave off say, an entire Flash. I am not crunching any numbers as I am more of a "feel this out" tank than a mathematician, but I am doubtful that it will save a Flash. This phase is also very dependent on how aggressive you are with cure cheating. I for one, am very aggressive with this and I usually have two BRDs (marchX2, balladX2). There is little-to-no DD happening during this phase out of courtesy to tanks (Blood Pacts are OK).

This phase usually lasts between 3 and 5 minutes at the start of the battle or after a hate reset move (ex: Horrid Roar).

Goal: Cap enmity as fast as possible.

Phase2: Maintenance of Enmity--this phase takes up the majority of the battle and starts the second you hit the hate cap (easily judged by Atonement damage nowadays). During this phase the alliance eases into its strategy. Your Ballad BRD might be giving tanks Madrigal for example, you are starting to drop DoT spells on the mob, and your heavy DD is starting.

This phase lasts anywhere from five minutes into the battle until the end, whether it be 30minutes or 4 hours (in which case you're in big trouble).

Goal: Maintain the hate cap.

Phase3: The "end push"--where a mob is usually going ape-shit and you need to keep your enmity up. Tank spidey-sense usually peaks around this time, as they are dealing with faster attacks (ex: Tiamat mini-rage), faster DD (ex: Rangers going all out to kill Ixion), or TP-spam due to stuns (making mob hold TP) or DD pushing (Khimaira, Fafnir).

This phase lasts about as long or less than Phase 1. Sometimes this phase doesn't exist at all (KB, Aspid).

Goal: Maintain the hate cap in worse conditions than prior and kill the mob in the safest way possible.

----------

This explanation is the best I can write from my head really. Due to hate-building being a fairly short process, and my aggressive play style on the battlefield, I've never really seen the need for gear swapping on Flash and Cures. My cure cheats however do maximize enmity in non-visible slots (I call them "accessory slots") because they allow for a great amount of enmity than my usual <stpc> cures. Likewise, I swap for all Job Abilities; Full VIT for Rampart, MND on Chivalry (this is limited to my inventory space tbh), and Valor Leggings +1 for Sentinel.

So realistically, enmity swapping is going to be better at some point in the fight, just not the majority of it. I think Wopa said it well when he stated that it's like adding +9000 MND to already capped Stoneskin. The rate at which you lose enmity throughout a fight isn't as fast as you could possibly make it back with all those enmity swaps during the majority of the fight. At the start of a fight, it's not the same.

Christ, I shoulda just made a blog post...

[Neosutra]

One would have to give some thought to how long it actually takes a person to reach the cap, how much damage they will be taking on avg once there, and how fast the enemy is attacking. This being the case, and given your premises, a solid emnity/haste build is best till cap, in which the pld should then switch to full haste over emnity. The difference then is wether the pld chooses to idle in oshi gear.

[Eldelphia]

As a career WHM and a fairly experienced healer in general I haven't used <st> macros. I absolutely hate being locked into party only. I may have to now of course. All i'd been doing for harder fights and people outside my is switching to compact keyboard before the event and scrolling the list. Or typing /ta Name. The latter obviously isn't fast enough for emergencies though.

Using <t> I beat out everyone around me. I expect gear changes from everyone and no, I don't always get it right but I'm acknowledged as a good WHM. The ability to target *anyone* fast is key to being a good healer in my opinion. Even though I'm a tank party healer and my focus is my tanks, being able to adjust to a situation and hit others, for example in another party with Divine Veil obviously until recently has been down to using <t>.

st macros are slower but I'm sure with habit <stal> won't make that much difference. Funnily enough I use <st> macros on my n00b pld (24!)

My main problem with blinking tanks is not that they blink, it's that they know when to stop blinking. If you're in trouble, shadows down etc etc then sure go ahead and hit your 'O shit' or 'recast' set. I just have met too many tanks who decide to switch all their gear in and out in the same macros and too many mages not able to deal with it.

If you have a good working relationship with your mages, it's not a problem but honestly the responsibility comes from both sides. No one is on their A game 24/7 whether you like it or not.

Switching to <stal> doesn't fix it for einherjar and dynamis but it will fix for most other things.

[Harutaru]

Alot of this argument boils down to principle vs practicality. In principle, blinking probably is better. When I'm on WHM I have no trouble dealing with blinking tanks with the aids the pro-blinking school mentioned. However, I also know WHMs who do struggle with blinking tanks, and I've seen several deaths accounted to the tank blinking. Should they be able to deal with it? Probably, but the fact is the blinking tank is now dead where a non-blinking tank may not have been, and from a practical point of view which of those two will be more useful to the overall flow of a fight?

[Neosutra]

Good post Eld.

And to amok : Wirhe double march and haste you need just over 15% haste in gear to reach recast cap.

[ringthree]

In the end this boils down to who the fuck cares?

Always thought this was the most useless discussion in the game.

Do what works for the people that you play with, if that means blinking more do it, if it means blinking less, do that instead.

If the difference between blinking and not blinking is going to make a difference in a fight then you have bigger things to worry about.

[Neosutra]

I think people that were already experienced plds will continue to do what they are comfortable with, but the main point was to give some insight for those plds just starting out. However ringthree I don't really agree with the "if it doesn't make or break a fight, don't do it" mentality.

[Charismatic]

Might as well not have your DDs upgrade their gear... won't make or break the fight, will just take a few extra min.
Right?

[Asdrabael]

According to certain members of my ex-linkshell Burtgang should be worn at all times in all situations and /BLM is completely retarded for Einherjar (even though I proved it to work completely fine lol?).

Oh and idling in DD gear on PLD for ANYTHING is also retarded, along with blinking! If you blink you suck. Apparently.

This is why this isn't really relevant. The opinions of members of your former ls who you only quote in an attempt to ridicule them isn't really relevant or informative at all. Its trying to make them look bad, and by comparison anyone who disagrees with you on no-visible swaps.

[Grey Jorildyn]

And to amok : Wirhe double march and haste you need just over 15% haste in gear to reach recast cap.

This is the exact reason I full-time Bahamut's Mask. With the amount of cure cheating I do, the enmity+8 is the more-used piece for me. My avatar is my idle gear and that's got the 15% haste in it. Loquacious Earring and Blitz Ring edge me over that. It's the exact reason I don't swap in turban for utsu/flash. However, I'll be full-timing that once I get Excal so that will all change.

[kandiekane]

I've just noticed the most hilarious thing ever.

Neo's ls overview is this:

"Hello, this is an overview of what exactly Homingmissile does and event times/planning.
HM is an event LS that specializes in Einherjar, Salvage, ZNMs, Limbus, and other pop NMs"

He doesn't even DO endgame HNMs lololol.

Cookies livejournal only has pics of salvage, campaign, swift belt run, and skillups. Not to mention stupid dat swaps to make himself look like he has gear he wishes he has!

Do any of you 2 bumbling idiots actually even kill Dark Ixion, Sandworm, Khim, Tia, Cerb, 3kings, >>>>>on a daily basis<<<<<? If not, then you guys are the biggest fakers I've seen and not even worth the time to argue against.

_________________________

Pld/Drk is the number 1 best einherjar and dynamis crowd controller, do you want to know why? Let me teach you guys something.

1. As other ppl have stated, you can cure1 a sleeper and have hate on all of the mobs he slept.
2. You have 4 enormous hate generated JAs you can use which can be alternated on a 1 minute timer. (sentinal, rampart, souleater, last resort)
3. You have flash, bind, sleep, stun to tag or pull any strays.
4. Pld/Blm sucks because, not all mobs are perfectly gathered together for you to sleepga them. You have no useful JA's to generate hate, just a 15 minute ES, which you can use maybe twice during a single einherjar run. If you require a pld to sleepga things, your LS fails anyways.
5. Stun is a very versatile spell that can help with exploding bombs, ga3s, mijin gakure, hundred fists, etc.

Try to rip hate of off a pld that just cure sleeper > souleater > cure3 spam himself.

[sleekmotorwurkz]

Do any of you 2 bumbling idiots actually even killed Dark Ixion, Sandworm, Khim, Tia, Cerb, 3kings, >>>>>on a daily basis<<<<<? If not, then you guys are the biggest fakers I've seen and not even worth the time to argue against.

I have and I agree with them, you are an idiot. Id give you screenshots... but well, im blinking.

disclaimer: There is no "right" way, i prefer to blink, some other plds dont. But saying either way is the only way, and the people who dont agree with you are wrong, is dumb.

[sleekmotorwurkz]

also...

Pld/Drk is the number 1 best einherjar and dynamis crowd controller, do you want to know why? Let me teach you guys something.

1. As other ppl have stated, you can cure1 a sleeper and have hate on all of the mobs he slept.
2. You have 4 enormous hate generated JAs you can use which can be alternated on a 1 minute timer. (sentinal, rampart, souleater, last resort)
3. You have flash, bind, sleep, stun to tag or pull any strays.
4. Pld/Blm sucks because, not all mobs are perfectly gathered together for you to sleepga them. You have no useful JA's to generate hate, just a 15 minute ES, which you can use maybe twice during a single einherjar run. If you require a pld to sleepga things, your LS fails anyways.
5. Stun is a very versatile spell that can help with exploding bombs, ga3s, mijin gakure, hundred fists, etc.

Try to rip hate of off a pld that just cure sleeper > souleater > cure3 spam himself.

I guess sentinel and rampart dont work /blm huh?