The "Should Tanks Blink" thread.

[Callisto]

oh god all I could think of was this one time I was doing CoP 2-5, and we had a PLD who was going to kite the mammets. The first run he runs in and aggros, then runs this crazy zig-zag pattern across the BC, and gets fucking mauled. We were like "dude, what the fuck was that?" and he responds "I thought if I moved like that they'd miss me more often..."

[Riel]

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/1421/harambeehr1.jpg

[Valisk]

Basically, Shadow mantle is 10% chance of complete damage negation

I know I'm a few pages late and not sure if someone pointed this out/debated it but there is no way Shadow Mantle is 10% proc rate. I thought tests revealed that it's 5%.

[Duber]

1) Being at cap hate, Blinking or NOT blinking is the same as adding +9000 MND to already capped Stoneskin.

Did I miss anything ? I don't know if anyone was able to find the cap of hate and enmity but that you reach a cap doesn't mean that cap is the same for everyone. As I understand it the more enmity you have, the higher that cap will be for you.

Of course you won't notice a big difference if all you do is solo tank hnms, keeping hate on hnm as pld is not that hard, but try to test it vs another competent tank or in lesser mobs.

[richardd]

I know I'm a few pages late and not sure if someone pointed this out/debated it but there is no way Shadow Mantle is 10% proc rate. I thought tests revealed that it's 5%.

some ppl are blessed to have the lucky procs. However i'm cursed with both ring and mantle.

[kandiekane]

I had the lovely misfortune to read all those posts before they were edited and wow, this topic sure knows how to get people hostile. Why exactly is this such a heated debate? It's really simple.

Yes, blinking will improve your "efficiency" (loosely used as everything is situational) as you approach the hate cap. Thereafter, the effect is unseen unless you are losing large amounts of enmity, usually due to damage, which causes a significant enough dive that the extra enmity you would swap into helps you regain it faster than doing otherwise.

Since you spend the majority of battletime at or very close to the hate cap, and therefore in a position where all that extra enmity does not benefit you as much as it does during your hate-building phase, gear swapping loses (most) of its utility.

The way I see tanking is in phases actually, and it's like this:
----------
Phase1: Hate building--where those enmity swaps are going to help. Only with a significant amount of additional enmity are you going to shave off say, an entire Flash. I am not crunching any numbers as I am more of a "feel this out" tank than a mathematician, but I am doubtful that it will save a Flash. This phase is also very dependent on how aggressive you are with cure cheating. I for one, am very aggressive with this and I usually have two BRDs (marchX2, balladX2). There is little-to-no DD happening during this phase out of courtesy to tanks (Blood Pacts are OK).

This phase usually lasts between 3 and 5 minutes at the start of the battle or after a hate reset move (ex: Horrid Roar).

Goal: Cap enmity as fast as possible.

Phase2: Maintenance of Enmity--this phase takes up the majority of the battle and starts the second you hit the hate cap (easily judged by Atonement damage nowadays). During this phase the alliance eases into its strategy. Your Ballad BRD might be giving tanks Madrigal for example, you are starting to drop DoT spells on the mob, and your heavy DD is starting.

This phase lasts anywhere from five minutes into the battle until the end, whether it be 30minutes or 4 hours (in which case you're in big trouble).

Goal: Maintain the hate cap.

Phase3: The "end push"--where a mob is usually going ape-shit and you need to keep your enmity up. Tank spidey-sense usually peaks around this time, as they are dealing with faster attacks (ex: Tiamat mini-rage), faster DD (ex: Rangers going all out to kill Ixion), or TP-spam due to stuns (making mob hold TP) or DD pushing (Khimaira, Fafnir).

This phase lasts about as long or less than Phase 1. Sometimes this phase doesn't exist at all (KB, Aspid).

Goal: Maintain the hate cap in worse conditions than prior and kill the mob in the safest way possible.

----------

This explanation is the best I can write from my head really. Due to hate-building being a fairly short process, and my aggressive play style on the battlefield, I've never really seen the need for gear swapping on Flash and Cures. My cure cheats however do maximize enmity in non-visible slots (I call them "accessory slots") because they allow for a great amount of enmity than my usual <stpc> cures. Likewise, I swap for all Job Abilities; Full VIT for Rampart, MND on Chivalry (this is limited to my inventory space tbh), and Valor Leggings +1 for Sentinel.

So realistically, enmity swapping is going to be better at some point in the fight, just not the majority of it. I think Wopa said it well when he stated that it's like adding +9000 MND to already capped Stoneskin. The rate at which you lose enmity throughout a fight isn't as fast as you could possibly make it back with all those enmity swaps during the majority of the fight. At the start of a fight, it's not the same.

Christ, I shoulda just made a blog post...

Every single PLD should read this like the bible and stfu with your efficiency crap. You are actually being inefficient while striving to be efficient.

For each stage of tanking, there is an optimal idle set. Nobody here is saying you have to idle in the same set. Here's how it works.

- In the first stage, you idle in enmity/haste to cap hate. 1 idle macro and non-blinking "accessory" gear swaps can allow you to do this.

- In phase 2, you idle in shield/haste to maintain hate, keep shadows up, and mitigate damage if you get hit.

- In phase 3, you idle in full haste and add in enmity/shield as necessary.

By being flexible and swapping in different idle sets and not blinking every action, you actually are MORE efficient than trying to macro in everything at once and forcing yourself to use gears you don't need.

It's like driving an automatic car vs. stick shift. Sure auto is easier and more "efficient" for normal day to day driving, but if you really want performance you drive manually because you have better control for each action you do. The same rule applies here.

Using spellcast and blinking flash/cure macro's force you to always use the same gear in every action you do, when you probably need more of some other attribute like enmity/haste/shield. Manually being able to swap between all your gears AND not blink as often is actually MORE efficient than you blinking every 2 seconds.

It also removes the problem for other mages and just makes everyone's lives easier, including yourself! Again, Blinking does indeed mess up timing for casting. If you don't believe me, try casting ichi or ni right after you press your flash macro. It won't work becaues you will be in the middle of blinking, so you need to wait until after you blink back to be able to start casting.

PLEASE, for any new pld's reading this thread, do not start changing all your macro's to blink every 2 seconds and blame and curse at your mage/support for being noobs because you died. It's your fault for listening to these idiots.

[Hyriu]

You should stop to people to shut the fuck up like they know nothing because no one's taking you seriously.

[Callisto]

Did I miss anything ? I don't know if anyone was able to find the cap of hate and enmity but that you reach a cap doesn't mean that cap is the same for everyone. As I understand it the more enmity you have, the higher that cap will be for you.

Of course you won't notice a big difference if all you do is solo tank hnms, keeping hate on hnm as pld is not that hard, but try to test it vs another competent tank or in lesser mobs.

Kanican - Enmity Testing (Part VI)

[kandiekane]

You should stop to people to shut the fuck up like they know nothing because no one's taking you seriously.

That's too bad, because I'm one of the few PLD's in this thread that is giving proper advice.

[Valisk]

That's too bad, because I'm one of the few PLD's in this thread that is giving proper advice.

That's not true. You are entitled to your opinion but you can't say that other PLDs are giving bad advice because they are encouraging others to blink and maximize various equipment. It's a fact that if used properly/intelligently, gear swapping gives increased preformance, marginal or not.

[Belkin]

Telling people not to blink now, when there are so many ways to avoid the stress of trying to target the blinker, is just dumb.

The new command
Typing the syntax out (Not hard, especially if you've been doing it for years)
BlinkMeNot plugin

What other excuse are you going to use for gimping yourself? Most people are going to defend the "Don't blink" argument to death because they are flat out lazy.

[Callisto]

What other excuse are you going to use for gimping yourself? Most people are going to defend the "Don't blink" argument to death because they are flat out lazy.

Continually swapping visible gear keeps unlocking my targeting, forcing me to continually press down on the left stick of my controller to lock on again. Were I not needing to do that I could effectively play with one hand, thus maximizing my ability to fap while tanking. I'm amazed someone who has tanked stuff as long as you have didn't know this.

[Belkin]

I have never played with a controller, I didn't even realize it was possible to fap while main curing a tank.

The real question is, can I fap WHILE I tank?

[Zosi]

Most of what you posted was just parroting Merona's post using less intelligent wording, but this was too stupid to pass up.

Using spellcast and blinking flash/cure macro's force you to always use the same gear in every action you do

Neither of those "force" you to play any particular way. SpellCast's entire feature set is optional, and there's no reason you'd ever be forced to use any part that may interfere with your tanking. You can use it to blink, or you can use it without blinking. It's actually substantially *MORE* flexible than any kind of pre-written macro, because it allows you to do things like automatically NOT blink if you're low on HP. Whether you blink or not, SpellCast is extremely powerful in the right hands, which apparently doesn't include you.

Also, blinking macros are no more or less restrictive than non-blinking macros. Either one is equally inflexible, should you want the other.

As usual, once you get away from quoting someone else and going "OH YA WHAT THEY SAID HA I PWNED U", you totally fail at making any kind of point.

Lastly, post your name and server. You cry out to new PLDs to not listen to us, but why should they listen to you? Until you prove otherwise, you're nothing but an anonymous troll that's better left ignored. You've yet to prove that you've tanked so much as Genbu on PLD, let alone all the stuff you claim to tank "on a daily basis".

[Belkin]

Probably Kandykanez of Bahamut. I haven't seen them around in years. Most they've tanked is probably a Fafnir or Jorm long ago. :/

[Zosi]

That's too bad, because I'm one of the few PLD's in this thread that is giving proper advice.

Again, if you're giving "proper advice", there's no need to hide behind anonymity. Most of the people posting here have no shame about their identity, I can go to their LS websites and see the results of their tanking. Where's yours? Put up or shut up.

[Callisto]

I have never played with a controller, I didn't even realize it was possible to fap while main curing a tank.

The real question is, can I fap WHILE I tank?

I meant while tanking, if you can't do it while main healing you should just go play WoW or something.

[Jhun]

as some moves like Rampart stance can even be absorbed by shadows.

Late response I know, but Rampant Stance cannot be absorbed by shadows you either get hit (with shadows up) and get an additional effect stun or not, or the WS entirely misses you like "Dark Ixion uses Rampant Stance but misses xxxxx".

Or if you're hurting on HP/MP just run away from it and run back like you do with Spear/Zeuz.

[kandiekane]

Just because you say my advice is invalid doesn't make it invalid. Does it matter who I am if my points are valid? Really, you guys are defending a guy who is saying pld/rdm is > pld/nin for DI and pld/blm > pld/drk for dynamis/einherjar. That right there is enough to discredit anything he says as he has no clue how to play PLD properly. And if you believe in that too, then you are an idiot also.

[Kenji]

That is the difference. To me it is not acceptable to be that crappy of a mage. Half of the posters on this thread clearly suck and want to rationalize it by blaming tanks for optimizing their gear.

Then you've missed what people are saying. We aren't saying "Don't blink." We are saying: "Work with your healers and teammates to find what's best."

Neo has been advocating the position that the mages adapt to him; no ands, ifs, or buts and no room for compromise. When the reality is that everyone is different, and the best team is the one that works together.

Also, none of us have extreme problems healing a blinker(unless they are blinking every half-second). It can cause an issue; statistically, though, it's quite likely that there will come a point where a heal is desperately needed, and a blink at a bad time will happen. What happens then? The tank dies, the co-tank takes over, and the group adapts.

The only thing lost, is the tanks XP. Even more so, if he has to take an R1. If you are fine with losing more xp than needed, as a tank, and are confident of your ability to stay alive for long periods of time at low life, then I suppose you don't need to worry about working with your healers.