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  1. #14061
    HABS SUCK!!!!!
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    Okay, I'm done, unless you show what gear and shit you're using, and what buffs you're getting, I'm having a really hard time understanding how you can cripple yourself with a 60 acc handicap, and have that set still come out well on top against Tojil.

  2. #14062
    Yarglebargle
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    Bro, I did.

    The TP set 3 posts above yours, I didn't specifically list all my buffs before but here's a list if you need it: 3+ songs (double march, or marchx1 if haste II and minuets) SAM roll, Chaos Roll, Dia II. /WAR so Aggressor, Berserk, Warcry, Feint kept on cooldown, Conspirator. Sushi (on Tojil).

    If your party isn't shit then Tojil should die before Aggressor wears off anyways. You can have a hard time understanding it if you want, I'm just telling you what the spreadsheet says. I realize the spreadsheet is only factoring ideal conditions, but since there isn't a way to quantify the human factor this is what we have.

    You jumped into this being argumentative, have cherry picked things out of my posts and ignored other parts. I'm done now.

  3. #14063
    HABS SUCK!!!!!
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    Oh right, I know what happened, I stopped here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuishen View Post
    I don't think ACC is as big of a deal as you're making it out to be
    which was kind of a ridic statement to make.

    Making up for 60 acc means you're taking away from other possible buffs...from you AND the rest of your party.

  4. #14064
    Yarglebargle
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    Quote Originally Posted by NynJa View Post
    Oh right, I know what happened, I stopped here:

    which was kind of a ridic statement to make.

    Making up for 60 acc means you're taking away from other possible buffs...from you AND the rest of your party.
    And my point was you weren't having to make it up at all on the shit I was talking about anyways, if you had looked at the buffs list. I clearly stated I had no data for higher level Incursion or for when you're /NIN on shit like AAs, in which case you're probably right about the acc being an issue. But for Tojil you /shouldn't/ need any outside acc buffs..

    You had some semblance of a point at the beginning of this so I've been rechecking my numbers and I have a question for those versed in the dps spreadsheets:

    Does the spreadsheet account for the triple damage proc and additional effect: poison on mandau?

    If it doesn't, those two things could potentially put Mandau/Izhii over Izhii/Atoyac as they were pretty close to begin with. This is specifically for Tojil, if you drop it down to Delve Fodder the DPS difference is massive, like 160+ in favor of Izhii/Atoyac. On Tojil and undoubtedly high level Incursion among other things, if the procs on mandau aren't being calculated then Mandau/Izhii will win.

    So yes Nynja, if somebody answers the above question, you might actually have been correct, just not for your original reasons. But I wouldn't have thought of that without this argument, so thanks.

  5. #14065
    Impossiblu
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    last I checked motenten's spreadsheets simulate relic procs. additional effect poison probably not, but that doesn't matter anyway. Big thing here though is, if you're incorporating additional acc buffs/eva debuffs for the Atoyac to work (as Nynja has suggested), it's taking more valuable buffs away from the entire party and reducing everyone's DPS by a number that is likely collectively higher than whatever you're gaining by having OAT in your offhand, particularly on a job that already has a significant amount of multiattack.

    Keep in mind this is for things that actually take buffs to hit or deal max damage to. I don't really make a habit out of modeling or caring about modeling fodder situations since no1curr.

  6. #14066
    CoP Dynamis
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    what's the interaction between OAT and DA/TA/QA? Isn't DA not as desirable for THF since it blocks THF's massive amount of TA? Does OAT work the same? Is it therefore undesirable even if achievable through some means?

  7. #14067
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karizo View Post
    what's the interaction between OAT and DA/TA/QA? Isn't DA not as desirable for THF since it blocks THF's massive amount of TA? Does OAT work the same? Is it therefore undesirable even if achievable through some means?
    Oat procs last so it's DA/TA blockiny oat but same idea of devaluation. The exception being jailer weapons... and if acc doesn't matter maybe we should just offhand justice sword

  8. #14068

    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Oat procs last so it's DA/TA blockiny oat but same idea of devaluation. The exception being jailer weapons... and if acc doesn't matter maybe we should just offhand justice sword
    IIRC, the procing order is QA=>TA=>DA=>AMOAT=>weaponOAT.
    I don't think that AM caused OATwice/Thrice takes priority over the QTDAs... but give it being special... I could be misremembering.

    Also, in regards to the whole Atoyac talk: Um... aren't the spreadsheets available still out of date since that last WS update? Wouldn't that affect supposed "SPREADSHEET IS GOD" arguments that people fall on? (not even touching the acc thing.)

  9. #14069
    Yarglebargle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prothescar View Post
    last I checked motenten's spreadsheets simulate relic procs. additional effect poison probably not, but that doesn't matter anyway. Big thing here though is, if you're incorporating additional acc buffs/eva debuffs for the Atoyac to work (as Nynja has suggested), it's taking more valuable buffs away from the entire party and reducing everyone's DPS by a number that is likely collectively higher than whatever you're gaining by having OAT in your offhand, particularly on a job that already has a significant amount of multiattack.

    Keep in mind this is for things that actually take buffs to hit or deal max damage to. I don't really make a habit out of modeling or caring about modeling fodder situations since no1curr.
    Are you sure? I can't find where in the calculations it's adding the relic proc, do you perhaps know where exactly that would show up?

    Also for like the 3rd time, on Tojil I'm not incorporating outside Acc buffs/Eva debuffs. I was actually wrong about the Red Curry buns, you'll have to use Sushi on Tojil, but you need that for your Mainhand anyways, as with the TP set I used I was at 65% on mainhand. The RDM should be casting Distract II on the mob to begin with but I don't think there's a way to add that to the spreadsheet anyways.

    @FaeQueen: You can adjust the ftp values of the WS's manually to update them yourself.

  10. #14070
    Impossiblu
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    Should be using at least 1 acc buff if acc isn't capped but you still need 60 extra accuracy for the offhand that you won't need to cap the mainhand which is, at minimum, an extra buff or debuff. You seem to be failing to grasp this.

  11. #14071
    Ridill
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuishen View Post
    I was actually wrong about the Red Curry buns, you'll have to use Sushi on Tojil, but you need that for your Mainhand anyways, as with the TP set I used I was at 65% on mainhand.
    Um if your mainhand with 242 skill has 65% hitrate without sushi then you'd need 116 acc to cap your Atoyac offhand. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think such a sushi exists. The kind of hit rate it would be sporting would be lower enough to almost cancel out the oat in terms of hits landed per round

  12. #14072
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    Does the spreadsheet know sushi has a cap? If it is just giving a flat +15% acc then it would make atoyac look usable.

  13. #14073
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    There are caps listed for acc foods in the spreadsheet.

  14. #14074
    Yarglebargle
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    Alright let's curb this bullshit right here and now:

    Proth says at least 1 acc buff which most DDs should need so I factored that in.

    Using Red Curry Buns:
    Set 1 (Izhii/Atoyac): Mainhand Hit Rate: 93% Offhand hitrate: 69%
    Set 2 (Mandau/Izhii): Both Hands Hit rate: 88.5% (Unsure as to why that is)
    Spoiler: show


    Using Sole Sushi:
    Set 1 (Izhii/Atoyac): Mainhand Hit Rate: 95% Offhand Hit Rate: 95%
    Set 2 (Mandau/Izhii): Mainhand Hit Rate: 95% Offhand Hit Rate: 95%
    Spoiler: show


    Sets I'm using: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36...ef/57/#2770377 Only things different from there are Ginsen/Qirmiz instead of Yetshila +1, and weapons. I think that's it.

    So to answer the original question: YEAH, the OAT and 2% ws damage DOES outweigh the acc loss. The gap becomes even wider with capped acc.

    If I'm doing something wrong here then by all means point it out so I can correct it.

    EDIT: Keep in mind: I'm still in the process of tweaking TP set and seeing if putting in more acc helps, but when you start doing that you start losing STP which is the single biggest DPS boost for THF atm.

  15. #14075
    Ridill
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    The reason hit rate goes in the rcb example is because of the loss of dex from ato. Also acc cap for 1 hd is 99% now. Also if you only need a little acc to cap with the 119 weapons I'd assume something like pizza would be better than sushi

  16. #14076
    Yarglebargle
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    The reason hit rate goes in the rcb example is because of the loss of dex from ato. Also acc cap for 1 hd is 99% now. Also if you only need a little acc to cap with the 119 weapons I'd assume something like pizza would be better than sushi
    Ah, I forgot about the acc cap raise for 1 handers. I don't know how I would edit that in the spreadsheet, as it hasn't been updated to reflect that. You're right, Pizza +1 raises the DPS by 5 with Izhii/Atoyac, by 2 for Mandau/Izhii over Sushi. NQ pizza however is not better than Sole Sushi.

  17. #14077
    Impossiblu
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    What's the exact set being used for this, because the ones listed there aren't optimal for this setting. Ideally you would be using meat for the 119 weapon set and swapping in some extra accuracy gear in the slots least impacted since you gain far more that way. Shouldn't be using a full fodder or full accuracy set for Tojil

  18. #14078
    Yarglebargle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prothescar View Post
    What's the exact set being used for this, because the ones listed there aren't optimal for this setting. Ideally you would be using meat for the 119 weapon set and swapping in some extra accuracy gear in the slots least impacted since you gain far more that way. Shouldn't be using a full fodder or full accuracy set for Tojil
    I'm still in the process of tweaking it to get the most out of it. The TP set being used in the sheets posted above is the Delve Fodder tp set though, with Ginsen instead of Yetshila +1.

    Thus far I haven't been able to get higher than the above DPS.

  19. #14079
    Impossiblu
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    Interesting. Rudra being such a strong backend changes a lot, I suppose; sacrificing food and stronger offhand stats for OAT would never have worked before.

  20. #14080
    HABS SUCK!!!!!
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    I still dont get how WSDMG+2 from atoyac is better than WSDMG+5 from sandung consisering it doesnt need you to pull an extra 60 acc out of your ass. Can someone explain the math or reasoning? I get atoy has 12(? From phone) dex, is that really worth that much of having to have to compensate for 60 acc when not Rudraing?

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