Thread: Starcraft 1.1 incoming    

that ultra nerf is the smallest nerf of them all lol, especially considering the building attack is actually a buff

Yea, I think Zerg was the weakest of the 3 races at this point, so it's kinda good they didn't get any nerfs. I know for sure that I find PvZ matchups the easiest.

Originally Posted by Ramor

i don't mind this in theory, especially in the long term, but a 5/6 pool will almost certainly destroy protoss like 90% of the time, as is it's not always easy to get out a zealot before the lings are in your base

other than that particular concern i totally agree with all of the changes to zealots and the rest of the units, especially tanks.

I doubt so, 3 sec (on chrono boost) isnt even close to the time frame you get from different map. Even in the smallest 1v1 map, it shouldnt make a huge difference, and a 6pool zerg is a freebies win once you survive

3 extra seconds means the 6 zerglings attack 4 extra times comfortably. That's 6x6x4 = 144 extra damage to probes or 5x6x4 = 120 extra damage to buildings.

I don't have a lot of gaming experience but I enjoy theorycrafting a lot and this is a pretty significant buff to any early aggression against a toss by terran or zerg.

That judgement is not necessarily true. You are assuming 3 extra seconds of build time equates to 3 extra seconds of unadulterated damage, which is just not the case. Defending a 6 pool is often a lot about getting a block off, at which point the 6 pool becomes an instant lose no matter how early the lings get there. If a zealot is in a small enough choke and on hold position, it will never ever be cost effective or timely to break it. On most maps, the 3/5 second nerf will not affect whether or not a zealot is able to block in time for a 6 pool. That calculation itself really factors in the timing of the gateway more than the speed zealots build anyways.

It is a buff to early zerg aggression for sure, but 6 pool is not going to be a standard build against protoss. A later zealot doesn't change the fact that a 6 pool is an extremely risky build, that can be beaten very easily by certain common builds (10 gate or early forge builds) and even still loses to common economic builds like 13 gate when they are micro'd well. I don't see how this slight nerf changes that formula at all.

If anything, early terran aggression does seem like it will be stronger to me. Early 1-2 marauder + 1 marine aggression can be annoying enough to deal with as it is when you are trying to do a fairly standard 1gate core strategy, and the disadvantage of a later zealot only adds up over time. The first may be 5 seconds later (you don't usually chrono boost gateways in such an economic build), but the second is going to be 10 seconds later and the third will be 15. This starts to be a significant shift, and it may mean the crucial difference of 1-2 zealots being missing which makes early marauder aggression very difficult to deal with (particularly if proxied).

@thunder
Yeah, but they wont be attacking comfortably with your probe around to harass them. If they attack a building, your probe get a free hit. Block your entrance with a pilon to make sure no more reinforment get in and you're set.

I wasn't implying the zerg gets a free 150 damage or anything xD just wanted to illustrate the magnitude of what can happen in 3 seconds. Can't deny that in any game you face early aggression you wouldn't take more damage had your zealot came out 3 seconds later!

I see a lot of people shrugging off the 5 second build time tagged onto reapers/bunkers/zealot because relatively 5 seconds is really really short to people. But in-game it equates to a lot. Geno said it pretty well, your second zealot comes out 10 seconds later, third 15, etc etc. Which equates to ~1 less zealot for every ~6 you have.

Originally Posted by geno

That judgement is not necessarily true. You are assuming 3 extra seconds of build time equates to 3 extra seconds of unadulterated damage, which is just not the case. Defending a 6 pool is often a lot about getting a block off, at which point the 6 pool becomes an instant lose no matter how early the lings get there. If a zealot is in a small enough choke and on hold position, it will never ever be cost effective or timely to break it. On most maps, the 3/5 second nerf will not affect whether or not a zealot is able to block in time for a 6 pool. That calculation itself really factors in the timing of the gateway more than the speed zealots build anyways.

It is a buff to early zerg aggression for sure, but 6 pool is not going to be a standard build against protoss. A later zealot doesn't change the fact that a 6 pool is an extremely risky build, that can be beaten very easily by certain common builds (10 gate or early forge builds) and even still loses to common economic builds like 13 gate when they are micro'd well. I don't see how this slight nerf changes that formula at all.

If anything, early terran aggression does seem like it will be stronger to me. Early 1-2 marauder + 1 marine aggression can be annoying enough to deal with as it is when you are trying to do a fairly standard 1gate core strategy, and the disadvantage of a later zealot only adds up over time. The first may be 5 seconds later (you don't usually chrono boost gateways in such an economic build), but the second is going to be 10 seconds later and the third will be 15. This starts to be a significant shift, and it may mean the crucial difference of 1-2 zealots being missing which makes early marauder aggression very difficult to deal with (particularly if proxied).

I actually think with the changes we will see 10 pylon 10 gate 13 core become the standard in PvT. It will allow toss to get out two or three zealots + Stalker before that push gets there and will also allow the toss to put on pressure if he chooses.

Ultralisk nerf makes sense, they were ridiculously powerful against armored as is, even though you don't see them often. Ram being removed is a buff anyway, so it's nice and even there.

Reaper and bunker nerf hurts only a very specific cheese. Standard Reaper rushes won't be too limited by it, and it gives the opponent all of 5~15 more seconds to get a defense up if it's anticipated.

Tank nerf is awesome. I'll finally be able to get my speedlings and hydras into the tanks to actually do some work, instead of melting at 10 range. More incentive to get Carapace1 into my build quicker.

A little worried about Zealot nerf though. While I rarely 6pool, I still do it on Steppes about 90% of the time, as it's worked nearly every time for me. This only makes it easier.

The zealot nerf is unnecessary. Proxy gateway only really works on idiots who don't scout for it. I guess it was one of those strategies that went around like an STD though, that's probably why they're nerfing it. Probably the same reason they're nerfing Reapers too. The Siege Tank nerf is a long time coming but I don't feel like it truly addresses the balance problems with Terran. Mauraders and Thors still have retarded damage bonuses to mech/light (absurd in the case of Thors vs light air.) The Ultralisk nerf is kinda funny, I can't even think of one time when Ultralisks saved the day. Logistics make them much less useful than Thors/Colossus anyway.

Ultras are a damn game changing unit, you have no idea. Saved my ass in many situations. espically against terran. The nerf is so miner its not even noticable

Originally Posted by Mojo

The zealot nerf is unnecessary. Proxy gateway only really works on idiots who don't scout for it. I guess it was one of those strategies that went around like an STD though, that's probably why they're nerfing it. Probably the same reason they're nerfing Reapers too. The Siege Tank nerf is a long time coming but I don't feel like it truly addresses the balance problems with Terran. Mauraders and Thors still have retarded damage bonuses to mech/light (absurd in the case of Thors vs light air.) The Ultralisk nerf is kinda funny, I can't even think of one time when Ultralisks saved the day. Logistics make them much less useful than Thors/Colossus anyway.

I'm not sure if you're playing protoss or something, but against terran, you see them a lot in game that last more than 15-20min

I'm not sure about you, but stalkers are usually outmicroing ultralisk with blink. If you can get a clean hit, they can be pretty nice though. Against other units, I cant say I had much success with ultralisk. Zealot hurts ultralisk badly if they can surround them.


also, templar absolutely rape ultralisk...if they merge into archon. Archon vs ultra couldnt be more one sided.

Ultra vs Archon is an even fight. Ultra attacks faster. But the archon does more damage to the ultra, it comes out pretty close to even in the long run. In my experience that is. 5 3 3 ultra is nothing to toy with, neither is a 3-3-3 archon