"God did not create Universe!", says Hawking.

[Mojo]

There certainly is a ??? in the equation an it's the question of why the laws of physics exist. Nobody will ever be able to truly explain existence because explaining any part of it creates another question about the nature of the explanation.

[Salodin]

This isn't correct - there isn't a ??? in the equation. The laws of physics clearly allow everything to be created from nothing during the Big Bang.

But then what or who made the laws of physics. I mean it just goes round and round. Everything had a beginning, even the nothingness before the big bang. The only thing that in definition had no beginning is (a) god. In a roundabout way, I guess what I'm trying to say is, isn't the science that's trying to say there is no need for god to explain creation, in essence, the scientist's own version of (a) god?

I'm horrible with words, so I hope I'm conveying what I'm thinking correctly.

There certainly is a ??? in the equation an it's the question of why the laws of physics exist. Nobody will ever be able to truly explain existence because explaining any part of it creates another question about the nature of the explanation.

Exactly. The only exception to this is the notion of a god, since by definition, god has no beginning or end.

[Ashmada]

The "first cause" argument for the necessity of a creating divinity was always extremely weak anyway.

It explains nothing, just moves everything back a step : instead of "how was the universe created ?", you're left with "how was god created ?"


When all is said and done, any argument about whether god/allah/YHWH exists or not is silly.

On a purely logical level, the debate is solved and has been for a long time :
- You can't prove any deity exists.
- You can't prove no deity exists.
- You can (quite easily) prove that, if any deity/deities exist, they're not the god of abrahamic religions.
One of the most common ways is the old "can god create a rock so heavy he can't move it ?" (i.e. complete omnipotence is impossible), but it's far from the only one.


Tbh, it seems most current religious people don't believe out of faith, but out of ignorance and/or stupidity. They just never fully understood the debate.

[Mojo]

God is no exception. If there is a god, why does he exist? If your answer is "he just does", it's no different than a physicist stating that the laws of physics "just exist."

[Franzer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

Stop assuming that just cause you don't understand it, god must have done it.

[Sirenia]

Do you really think that the Big Bang was the beginning of everything? The beginning of our universe....yes. I like to think of infinity in math.....what if there is no beginning and no end? It's hard to imagine I know, and it's hard for us to wrap our minds around that concept.

[Hyan]

I'll try and find some links for you later, but for now I need to run to class, actually

Alright thanks in advance.

[Mayareira]

I find all this big bang stuff highly erotic.

[Khajit]

Atheist doesn't believe God exists! Our follow report reveals the shocking new theory spreading about Christians and Muslims worshiping the same god.

[Franzer]

I find all this big bang stuff highly erotic.

my sister is in the physics program at the university here, and they made shirts for themselves that say

"I <3 a good bang"

[Chen]

Everything had a beginning, even the nothingness before the big bang.

this is what always gets me, so until everything is proven i can't take 100% one side.

people need to get over the fact that they can't (yet) disprove(or prove) god and if we could round up all obsessed urwrong athesists and religous people and get rid of them the internet would be a happier place

[Mayareira]

Muslims believe that their God is the latest version. Christians (Windows XP) give them Windows Vista treatment though. So what would Jews be...

Anyways, atheists are MAC OS X.

my sister is in the physics program at the university here, and they made shirts for themselves that say

"I <3 a good bang"

Ha, that sounds awesome

[Mizango]

Duh, stop trying to stir shit up. This is from his new book "The Grand Design" which comes out on Sept. 7th. Yes I got mine and this is nothing new for Hawking, or any physicist on the planet.

Man you used to be cool, now its all about Mac dick sucking and Vajra like God controversies with you.

[Salodin]

You can (quite easily) prove that, if any deity/deities exist, they're not the god of abrahamic religions.

Well as 'heated' as any god/science debate goes on BG, I'm pretty sure we all agree that any major religion out there right now is pretty wrong in following w/e god they believe in. I like to think that if any of us here believe in god, it is just that, a god and nothing really specific.

God is no exception. If there is a god, why does he exist? If your answer is "he just does", it's no different than a physicist stating that the laws of physics "just exist."

I always assumed if you need to bring god into a creation theory, it is because by definition god has no beginning or end, there by ending the whole cycle of creation of the creation that created whateveritis that I am explaining created the universe as I know it.

[Knightmare]

Can't create something from nothing, come on people it the first law of Alchemy.

[Alleya]

I'll try to ask this question without sounding like an apologist for religion, though I guess in this case it's pretty hard - but hear me out.

I have trouble with this "Spontaneous Creation" concept. It all boils down to a timeline of Nothing > ??? > Everything, right? I'll go along with the fact that the scientific explanations for the behavior of the universe after the point of creation seem to be the most likely ones, but claiming we've dis-proven religion with what we know now just seems like an arrogant jump in logic.

Again, stop me if I'm misunderstanding here, but it doesn't sound like we have a clear logical path from nothingness to the singularity that caused the big bang. And that's entirely reasonable - we're dealing with things so far beyond our means to observe and relying so heavily on our deductive abilities that we shouldn't expect an absolute answer.

I don't think we'll ever have a real explanation for first cause, and claiming certainty just seems irresponsible. I'd love to be enlightened if I'm wrong.

The god argument is the real leap in logic. For the moment the big bang is still a bit of a mystery, but it accounts for an enormous amount of observational and experimental data.

If God made the universe, or set it into motion, because nothing going to something requires an intermediate step, then where exactly did God come from? Who made the maker? And who made the maker of the maker? And who made the maker of the maker of the maker? The god argument tries to account for spontaneous creation by hypothesizing a second spontaneous creation, except this second spontaneous creation must be, by the very logic of those who present this argument, at least as complex as the present universe in order to have then created it. It's a needlessly complex ruse to try to crowbar human beliefs into the order of the universe. The traditional counter to his is that God doesn't need a maker, and that it's just as plausible since there is a similar mystery surrounding the big bang, but this is a non-answer. The big bang theory accounts for this vast amount of data as I mentioned, whereas the existence of god accomplishes exactly nothing and explains exactly nothing in the creation of the universe, it just band-aids a yet-to-be-solved problem. I think this is what Hawking is getting at.

[Ashmada]

Muslims believe that their God is the latest version. Christians (Windows XP) give them Windows Vista treatment though. So what would Jews be...

Anyways, atheists are MAC OS X.



Ha, that sounds awesome

Scientologists are MAC OS X.

Atheists are Linux. The various distributions are for the various philosophies.

[Mizango]

God is no exception. If there is a god, why does he exist? If your answer is "he just does", it's no different than a physicist stating that the laws of physics "just exist."

Also, thank you Mojo. The one constant I hear from disbelievers in the 'big bang' is that something can not come from nothing, yet God simply exists. There is no God's god, no God's God's God etc.. its a joke of a concept. Think what you want about the big bang, but cosmic inflation and doppler shifts tell us that our home is expanding and will continue to do so for a long time. If youre thinking about posting and the last physics classes you took was physical science back in 8th grade, then save yourself the embarrassment of making an ass out of yourself. These threads generally take that course after a few hours, lets avoid it this time.

[Mayareira]

Duh, stop trying to stir shit up. This is from his new book "The Grand Design" which comes out on Sept. 7th. Yes I got mine and this is nothing new for Hawking, or any physicist on the planet.

Man you used to be cool, now its all about Mac dick sucking and Vajra like God controversies with you.

Oh come on, I'm just messin' around with Mac thingy

[Byrthnoth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

Stop assuming that just cause you don't understand it, god must have done it.

Though this is the general understanding of Intelligent design (including by the people who advocate it, on average), Thomas Aquinas' version is much more general and can only be supported by physics.