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  1. #1
    Relic Weapons
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    Weapon Scaling: some early conclusions/speculations

    Edit with updated information:

    So I purchased 3 CNJ weapons today: the rank 1 Weathered Cane, the rank 6 Ash Cane, and the rank 11 Elm Cane, with the intention of testing out how the "optimal rank" affects your weapons and the stat scaling.

    While my sample was obviously very limited so far, my initial conclusion at CNJ rank 6 were that:

    Any weapon higher than your current rank acts as a rank 1 weapon of the appropriate type until you hit its optimal rank, after which it grants the additional stats.

    For example:

    CNJ1 to CNJ5: All three weapons acted as a Weathered Cane with no difference in stats or damage.
    CNJ6: Weathered Cane continued to be a Weathered Cane (shock horror!), but the Ash Cane unlocked allowing its improved stats. The Elm Cane remained the same as the Weathered Cane.
    CNJ7: Weathered Cane continued to be a Weathered Cane, Ash Cane remained an Ash Cane, but the Elm Cane gained +2 to Magic Potency, Magic Accuracy, and Magic Defense over the Weathered Cane. (Interesting!)
    CNJ8: Elm Cane gained another +2 to Magic Potency, Magic Accuracy, and Magic Defense. Still Below the Ash Cane, however.
    CNJ9: Elm Cane gained another +2 to the same stats. Still below the Ash Cane. Optimal rank for Elm Cane is 11, so I can't see it catching up before I hit 11 and its stats shoot up.
    CNJ10: Same story. +2 more points to the same stats.

    EDIT: That mostly concludes my testing for the day. It seems that the following conclusions can be drawn:

    1) It is ALWAYS better to use equipment that you have hit the Optimal Rank for. (eg. If you are a CNJ 10, it is always better to equip the Ash Cane (optimal 6) than the Elm Cane (optimal 11) if you have the choice.
    2) If you don't have the choice, a higher rank weapon will always be at least as good as the rank 1 weapon, and while it will get better over time, it will still fall short of optimally ranked weapons inbetween.

    Again, not conclusive, but I thought it was an interesting and worthwhile experiment.

  2. #2
    Lyramion's better half
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    nice info, thanks

  3. #3

    lv 17 hat with +10 perception gives +6 perception at lv13, it's just a scale
    if you're too far under, it won't give noticeable benefits, but it's almost always better to use something slightly higher level than something slightly lower level

  4. #4
    Relic Weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by qpoiuwer View Post
    lv 17 hat with +10 perception gives +6 perception at lv13, it's just a scale
    if you're too far under, it won't give noticeable benefits, but it's almost always better to use something slightly higher level than something slightly lower level
    Indeed. I'm just trying to see if there is a pattern to how far below its optimal rank it needs to be to start scaling.

  5. #5
    the whitest knight u' know
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    I found that being 1 rank below a new fishing rod knocked all its stats down by ~18% (which was still way better than any other option)

  6. #6
    Relic Weapons
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    Updated the original post with my final observations from testing up to CNJ10.

  7. #7

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    Good info, I like the feature more now that you can see its just about convenience.. rather than convulted scaling.

    Quote Originally Posted by qpoiuwer View Post
    lv 17 hat with +10 perception gives +6 perception at lv13, it's just a if you're too far under, it won't give noticeable benefits, but it's almost always better to use something slightly higher level than slightly lower level.
    That would be the opposite of the OPs conclusion. He shows a lvl6 staff beating out a lvl11 staff at rank 10.

  8. #8
    the whitest knight u' know
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    I still wish gear wasn't allowed to be worn by the entirely wrong class. By the way, any tests on the stat deteriorations from improper class?

  9. #9
    ES #1 HUE HUE HUE
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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    I still wish gear wasn't allowed to be worn by the entirely wrong class. By the way, any tests on the stat deteriorations from improper class?
    Why?

  10. #10
    the whitest knight u' know
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    So classes and their equipment made a little bit of visual sense. Why not?

  11. #11

    Quote Originally Posted by Celeras View Post
    Good info, I like the feature more now that you can see its just about convenience.. rather than convulted scaling.



    That would be the opposite of the OPs conclusion. He shows a lvl6 staff beating out a lvl11 staff at rank 10.
    Well, it would most likely work a little different from armor, which can have multiple +stat benefits. In general, higher armor will have more/higher stat bonuses, so even if you're getting 50% of a lv17 armor it's still going to be more stat boosts than a lv6 armor at 100%.

  12. #12
    Melee Summoner
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    Quote Originally Posted by qpoiuwer View Post
    Well, it would most likely work a little different from armor, which can have multiple +stat benefits. In general, higher armor will have more/higher stat bonuses, so even if you're getting 50% of a lv17 armor it's still going to be more stat boosts than a lv6 armor at 100%.
    Well, the Elm cane beat the weathered cane when he was 6 levels above the optimal rank of the weathered cane (1) and before reaching the elm's optimal level, and then again the elm cane did not beat the ash cane until it reached it's optimal level (11).... so needs moar testing

  13. #13
    Salvage Bans
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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    So classes and their equipment made a little bit of visual sense. Why not?
    Because SE is trying to push away from "these are different classes" notion and push towards "these are skills your character can learn" idea.

    The concept behind the system is that your character is growing and retaining all the knowledge they've gained as they trained with a weapon, magic or tool. Armor and gear follows this system, because your character can wear anything, but if your character isn't experienced enough in that specific form of combat while wearing that gear, it won't be as effective. If you're also using a weapon that's not suited to that gear (i.e. trying to punch people in heavy armor, or cast spells with a helmet on) they won't receive the full bonuses either.

    You can wear any gear you want at any time (at least as of now) but without the right training in the right skills, you won't be able to really benefit from using specific gear.

    As for the scaling bit, it seems like they took the concepts seen in level synch and brought them to this game. Honestly, I kinda like the system as is, gives the game a nice variety. Now they just need to actually add in more gear.

  14. #14
    Smells like Onions
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    Great info! Thanks.

  15. #15
    The Defense is ready, Your Honor
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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    So classes and their equipment made a little bit of visual sense. Why not?
    This game is less about classes and more about skills. The gear being used by nearly everyone reflects that. It'd be hard to imagine, at least right now, any kind of "AF" in this game, simply because you can use most every ability on another job.

    Perhaps if they only enhanced the abilities that cannot be brought over from class to class, but even that doesn't sound effective. At any rate, there -are- things that other classes cannot use. Mages cannot use certain DoW shields. Try giving your Thaum a Hoplon.

  16. #16
    FOR FUCKS' SAKE !!!
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    FUCK FUCK FUCK

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    Quote Originally Posted by miokomioko View Post
    So classes and their equipment made a little bit of visual sense. Why not?
    If you haven't noticed by now, SE is trying to break away from the mold. The whole reason for the class system is to build up your character your way. The way SE put it, there's really no optimal way of making a character.

    Melee battle caster, here I come!

  17. #17
    Formerly Raitoken
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluefan View Post
    If you haven't noticed by now, SE is trying to break away from the mold. The whole reason for the class system is to build up your character your way. The way SE put it, there's really no optimal way of making a character.

    Melee battle caster, here I come!
    We all know no matter what system does this that when people are given the freedom will all be using mostly the same abilities.

  18. #18
    the whitest knight u' know
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluefan View Post
    If you haven't noticed by now, SE is trying to break away from the mold. The whole reason for the class system is to build up your character your way. The way SE put it, there's really no optimal way of making a character.

    Melee battle caster, here I come!
    I'm aware of this, but even if we were restricted to class-favoring gear only, there would still be no shortage of gimp MP gear for your Lancer, or crappy HP gear for your Conjurer... which is what people are getting by wearing a ridiculous wizard hat on their melee or some heavy chainmail on their mage. I don't see significant benefits from wearing cross-class equipment thus far.

  19. #19
    Smells like Onions
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    Hello, I've been trying to scour various forums for an answer to this regarding Conj weapons.

    For the Ash Cane and the Elm Cane, do you know what the "Damage Type" percentages mean for each individual weapon? Am I right in assuming that there is a 35% damage bonus for, let's say Fire, if I used the Ash Cane over the Elm Cane, since the Elm has no Damage Type % for Fire?

  20. #20
    the whitest knight u' know
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    I think every weapon's damage output is divided into 2~3 types (adding up to 100%). This is mostly theory... but I feel it makes sense.

    Say, a Pugilist's weapon is 90% blunt and 10% piercing.
    If the Pugilist normally did 200 damage with a standard attack, 180 of that damage would be considered blunt and 20 of that damage would be piercing.
    Thus, if an enemy has a 50% resistance to blunt damage, the 180 chunk of the attack would be reduced by 50%, with the 20 chunk untouched as it is not blunt, resulting in a 110 damage.

    For a Conjurer, with an Ash Cane, I imagine a standard attack like Spirit Dart would consist of 35% fire damage, 35% wind damage, and 30% water damage. e.g. A 200-damage attack would be 70 fire damage, 70 wind damage, and 60 water damage, each chunk being individually reduced by the target's elemental resistances and possibly each being increased by your elemental affinity as well. Lastly, Conjurer/Thaumaturge weapons' elemental types come into play with the Weaponskills and attacks they obtain that deal damage based on the damage types of the equipped weapon. That part is self explainatory, it's even in the text of Spirit Dart.