Dragoon: Penta vs Drakesbane

[Fogo]

The war's KJ vs RR thread has got me thinking lately about drg (my newest 75 job), and about these two ws's. What I'd like to know is which do people think is better, for which scenarios, etc. Data/math/parses to back up opinions would be greatly appreciated. If this topic is too simple that it belongs in the What's better thread, then move it there I guess, but it seems to me it's an interesting topic that could use some discussion.

In my own experience, it seems DB wins for the most part on lower level mobs where acc isn't a problem at all, but on higher end mobs, including some dynamis, and endgame NM's and such, penta is the goto ws for consistency and acc.

Tips on gear improvements would be appreciated, and while I believe I have a lot of stuff, I know it's not perfect (unfortunately some pieces like white/black tathlums and other kings gear are a little beyond my reach, as my LS doesn't do those; but I know many others do, and this isn't just about me).

My Drakes set:
Thal/pole grip/ /tiphia (bibiki seashell when solo or /mage)
heca/light gorget/triumph/brutal
ares/heca/flame/rajas
cuchu/warwolf/ares/heca

Penta set:
thal/pole/ /tiphia
heca/shadow gorget/assault/brutal
ares/ares/iota/rajas
cuchu/warwolf/ares/heca

(no aurum cuirass, hoping someday to have one)

I don't have any parses (my parser is pretty old and crappy anyways but it works for what I use it for), but like I said, seems like db is a pretty solid choice on the lower level stuff, and penta tends to come out better on the higher or more evasive mobs.

P.s. I'm scared to death I'm doing something wrong posting this out in the open when I know there's pieces of information strewn throughout the what's better threads, but I'm hoping to maybe get some comprehensive information put together in one spot. Please don't kill me!

[Drace]

In my own experience, it seems DB wins for the most part on lower level mobs where acc isn't a problem at all, but on higher end mobs, including some dynamis, and endgame NM's and such, penta is the goto ws for consistency and acc.

Unless you are gearing Penta with more acc, there is no reason it will be the "goto ws for consistency and acc."

From my experience, its not in the same ballpark as RR vs. KJ. Drakesbane when you want multihit Pole WS 100%. Penta when you are on SAM or WAR.

[Yugl]

To be honest, I would have asked in Randomerest Question thread.

I don't think it's going to turn out like the RR v KJ thread. Drakesbane has the 50% STR MOD AND the Critical hit rate (Where as KJ has the former and RR has the latter). The ACC is generally irrelevant on most mobs since you strive to cap ACC in most cases (And I don't think anyone has found the ACC Bonus of Penta). The real question is: 30% STR Mod + Chance to critical hit (Penta cannot) v One extra hit + 20% DEX Mod.

[Raen Ryong]

5 hits of 20% STR 20% DEX vs 4 hits of 50% STR and critical potential.

Drakesbane is going to win in terms of WSC especially if you can pump enough STR... Combined with the fact that it can critical makes it miles ahead of Penta Thrust in my opinion.

[Fogo]

I never expected this to be like the other thread (and I hope it isn't), I'm just curious about the differences and such, as I posted.

My penta set does have more acc, if you look at the gear sets, and I did that for that reason; I am curious if others do this as well. As I also mentioned, it sure seems like penta is a lot more consistent on the higher level things (albeit admittedly the numbers are pretty close), and I was wondering if others had similar experiences or if there was math to back that up or whatever.

One thing I notice on drg vs war is, at least in terms of gear, there isn't nearly the potential for a dex build (mostly due to lack of bhaidate), so building for crits seems to be dumb (iirc my dex total ended up at 101 or something), but stacking str is pretty easy. On higher level NM's and such, does a stacked str DB make that much of a damage difference over pentas consistent acc?

[Raen Ryong]

You can get a lot of DEX on DRG... it's just expensive

Weapon/Grip/---/Black Tathlum
Heca/Gorget/Pixie/Brutal
Zahak's/Heca/Thunder/Rajas
Cuch/Warwolf/Hecatomb/Hecatomb

Alternatives for the harder to get stuff:

Head: Maat's Cap, not much else...
Body: Aurum Cuirass, ACP body
Legs: Oily Trousers, Askar Dirs

[Yugl]

I never expected this to be like the other thread (and I hope it isn't), I'm just curious about the differences and such, as I posted.

My penta set does have more acc, if you look at the gear sets, and I did that for that reason; I am curious if others do this as well. As I also mentioned, it sure seems like penta is a lot more consistent on the higher level things (albeit admittedly the numbers are pretty close), and I was wondering if others had similar experiences or if there was math to back that up or whatever.

One thing I notice on drg vs war is, at least in terms of gear, there isn't nearly the potential for a dex build (mostly due to lack of bhaidate), so building for crits seems to be dumb (iirc my dex total ended up at 101 or something), but stacking str is pretty easy. On higher level NM's and such, does a stacked str DB make that much of a damage difference over pentas consistent acc?

I would cap ACC for Drakesbane (Or get damn close) before working on STR pieces. It's not that difficult if you have full merits and gorget/L Torque (A 24ACC combo!). We *can* build a DEX build: FFXIGEAR.com and cap ACC while at it. Penta's consistent ACC only comes into play if you intentionally gimp your Drakesbane set. However, I question whether this set or a full STR set:FFXIGEAR.com is better.

[Starr]

I don't have the best DRG gear, it was something like this for both WS last I played DRG: FFXIGEAR.com and when I got Drakesbane it wasn't like OMGWOW but I am sure it parses higher than Penta Thrust when geared for correctly (either full DEX or full STR with enough Accuracy. I would really like to know if it has an accuracy bonus at 100% TP though so I could consider using it for Lurkers and Infiltrators rather than use an Accuracy Drakesbane set because I could see it doing more damage there if it was like +20 accuracy but I don't see it being that much if it is there.

[Virg]

Well since DRG is my newest 75 I didn´t have a lot of time to work on my gear. This is what I´m using right now for Drakesbane FFXIGEAR.com. Obviously I need N.Head and Cuchulain's Mantle. But what I´m really curious about is if anybody actually really parsed the difference between a full STR build, a full DEX build and a mix match of both, and if so which build came out on top.
As for the OPs question:
In my opinion Drakesbane > Penta Thrust.

[Yugl]

The DEX build isn't that far off from the STR build. If you look at the sets I posted, it's:

9STR+(.1)fTP v 14DEX(Cap dDEX and the ACC that comes with it, though both should be capped).

[Malacite]

It can't possibly be that hard to cap acc on DRG.

A+ weapon and 2 native accuracy traits, never mind food/gear/merits.

[TT]

In my travels Drakesbanne is superior on about everything, if you really want consistency on higher tier shit cause your gear is weak or you just aren't getting support or something... use Wheeling Thrust.
Once Drakesbanne was released and I got it that night I haven't used Penta thrust at all, but still find some situations that wheeling will give me a more consistent average.

[Rhealana]

Maximum likelihood of landing all hits for Penta Thrust: 77.3%
Maximum likelihood of landing all hits for Drakesbane: 81.4%

This is assuming 95% capped accuracy.

Also, WSC mods as others have pointed out are higher for Drakesbane, even though it only applies to the first hit. Pump enough STR and you'll offset the loss of one weapon strike going from Penta to Drakes.

It also doesn't take into account any crits that may proc when you WS with Drakesbane. Drakesbane is far better than Penta Thrust for DRG. You should only use Penta Thrust if you're a SAM or WAR, or if you haven't unlocked Drakesbane yet.

There are only 3 WSes that I use on a serious basis: Drakesbane, Wheeling Thrust, and the occasional Leg Sweep.

As for Penta's ACC bonus: I don't believe it gets any bonus at 100% TP. And even if it did, again it will cap at 77%.

[Lahan]

I am pretty sure Penta Thrust can crit.
(although that may be a double attack going off that I always thought was a crit)

[Rhealana]

No WS can crit unless they specifically have provisions to crit, or you force it to via Sneak Attack or Mighty Strikes. You likely double attacked.

[Raen Ryong]

Also, WSC mods as others have pointed out are higher for Drakesbane, even though it only applies to the first hit.

WSC is all hits! fTP is the only unique term to the first hit, along with potential acc/pdif bonuses but this is unverified.

[AoshiZ]

Penta Thrust has 5 hits.

Drakesbane has 4 hits with potential Crit.

If your Attack Defense ratio is high enough then your PDIF will close the gap between your critical hits and your non-critical hits.

Max pDIF for 2-handers now seems to be 2.8 with crits being 3.15.

Critical hits increase your pDIF by 1 or to the max. Therefore, you gain the most from your Critical Hits when your pDIF is not maxed.

So if your Attack is high enough it would be the assessment between:
5 attacks at 2.8 pDIF
or 4 potential attacks at 3.15 (low probability)

5 attacks at 2.8 will be higher than 4 full critical hits.

Double Attacks on WS does not seem to change this calculation much. Also, the Attribute Modifiers are close enough that they don't really change the outcome as well. (Of course your personal gear setups may affect what you decide to use because they may heavily be geared towards on setup over another).

My conclusion is that if your pDIF is high enough use Penta thrust. Drakesbane can produce much better damage output on high defense mobs in conjunction with critical % up gear and more TP.

I personally use Drakesbane the majority of the time because of the difficulties of getting 2.8pDIF on things that matter. However in some setups i will choose Pentathrust such as colibri meriting.

[Lahan]

No WS can crit unless they specifically have provisions to crit, or you force it to via Sneak Attack or Mighty Strikes. You likely double attacked.

Yea I edited that a little bit after I posted and thought about it more. I do not have DB yet sadly I am 0/25ish on floor 1-5 so I kinda gave up. So all I use is penta.

[Rhealana]

WSC is all hits! fTP is the only unique term to the first hit, along with potential acc/pdif bonuses but this is unverified.

I think I mixed up terminology, WSC with fTP. Basically, what I meant was stat mods based upon TP tiers (100/200/300), so fTP then.

[Plow]

Penta Thrust has 5 hits.

Drakesbane has 4 hits with potential Crit.

If your Attack Defense ratio is high enough then your PDIF will close the gap between your critical hits and your non-critical hits.

Max pDIF for 2-handers now seems to be 2.8 with crits being 3.15.

Critical hits increase your pDIF by 1 or to the max. Therefore, you gain the most from your Critical Hits when your pDIF is not maxed.

So if your Attack is high enough it would be the assessment between:
5 attacks at 2.8 pDIF
or 4 potential attacks at 3.15 (low probability)

5 attacks at 2.8 will be higher than 4 full critical hits.

Double Attacks on WS does not seem to change this calculation much. Also, the Attribute Modifiers are close enough that they don't really change the outcome as well. (Of course your personal gear setups may affect what you decide to use because they may heavily be geared towards on setup over another).

My conclusion is that if your pDIF is high enough use Penta thrust. Drakesbane can produce much better damage output on high defense mobs in conjunction with critical % up gear and more TP.

I personally use Drakesbane the majority of the time because of the difficulties of getting 2.8pDIF on things that matter. However in some setups i will choose Pentathrust such as colibri meriting.

Given the gear available to drg, isn't a full str/dex build going to leave you with plenty of room in pdif to get the full advantage of crits?