Elemental Belts

[Kirschy]

I realize this isn't exactly new thread worthy, but I felt it was better than having the information lost in the Random Question thread. (Also easier to search the information later.)

Previous testing had a discrepancy on the fTP addition from the new elemental belts. Melee WS tests were reporting + ~.1 fTP, while elemental WS tests had + .15 fTP.

Using ranged attacks for 100% accuracy it is clear that elemental belts add +.1 fTP (25/256) for physical weapon skills, the same as gorget~

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1769/elebelt.png

#1) Sidewinder naked.
#2) Sidewinder /w Light Belt.
#3) Sidewinder /w Light Gorget.
#4) Sidewinder /w Light Belt + Light Gorget.

For those interested in the math:

DMG: 39+41
fSTR: 24
WSC: 28 (16% 84STR, 25% 81AGI, .85 @)
fTP: 5.0

#1)5.0*( 39+41+24+28 )*3.0 = 1980
#2)(5.0+25/256)*( 39+41+24+28 )*3.0 = 2016
#3)(5.0+25/256)*( 39+41+24+28 )*3.0 = 2016
#4)(5.0+50/256)*( 39+41+24+28 )*3.0 = 2055

[mcb]

thanks for the info =)

[Lovex]

thanks kirschy. I think you're BGs top contributer//tester.

Always nice to see your results!

[Colenzo]

mmmmmm WS belts

[Sho]

So, just a question for kicks. Would this mean Thunder/Light/Wind Belt > Black Belt for Victory Smite?

[Yugl]

Definitely.

[Motenten]

Maybe.

Edit: To clarify:

Base for VS is 2.4 fTP plus 3 additional hits, for 5.4 effective fTP, 5.5 with gorget, and 5.6 with elemental belt. Adding the belt would then be 5.6/5.5 = 1.82% increase in damage.

However once you factor in DA and TA: 5% Brutal, 15% AoA atma, 5% VV atma, and 10% /war, we can get up to 20% DA and 15% TA. That extends the average number of effective hits to 6.44 with the gorget, and 6.54 with the belt, making the belt a 1.55% increase.

+7 str from Black Belt is, generally, +3 base damage from WSC, along with +3 attack. The +3 attack would be around +0.5% damage if you're not capping attack. That means the base damage on the Black Belt needs to account for between 1% and 1.4% of total base damage to be on par with the elemental belt.

With base from skill is 44 (assuming no +skill gear is used during weaponskill) plus 31 (Revenants) or 35 (Verethragna), for total base damage of 75 to 79. Add in fStr and that increases to 86 to 91.

For the +3 base damage from Black Belt to reach +1% base damage, total base damage needs to be 300 or less. Factoring out base skill and weapon, that means a WSC total of 210-215 or less, which would require less than 500 str. That is almost certainly the case, so Black Belt is equal/better than the elemental belt at this point.

To reach 1.4%, total base damage needs to be 215 or less. Factor out base skill/str and you need 125-130 WSC, which would require 300 str. Once again, almost certainly the case, so Black Belt is still better.

To reach 1.8% (no DA/TA, capped attack) you'd need total base to be 166 or less. Factor out skill/str and you need 75-80 WSC, which would require around 180-190 str. You will almost certainly be reaching this point if using VV atma, and should with the lower str atma set of RR+GH+AoA as well with a decent ws set. At this point, the elemental belt is better.

[Kirschy]

Maybe.

Edit: To clarify:

Base for VS is 2.4 fTP plus 3 additional hits, for 5.4 effective fTP, 5.5 with gorget, and 5.6 with elemental belt. Adding the belt would then be 5.6/5.5 = 1.82% increase in damage.

However once you factor in DA and TA: 5% Brutal, 15% AoA atma, 5% VV atma, and 10% /war, we can get up to 20% DA and 15% TA. That extends the average number of effective hits to 6.44 with the gorget, and 6.54 with the belt, making the belt a 1.55% increase.

+7 str from Black Belt is, generally, +3 base damage from WSC, along with +3 attack. The +3 attack would be around +0.5% damage if you're not capping attack. That means the base damage on the Black Belt needs to account for between 1% and 1.4% of total base damage to be on par with the elemental belt.

With base from skill is 44 (assuming no +skill gear is used during weaponskill) plus 31 (Revenants) or 35 (Verethragna), for total base damage of 75 to 79. Add in fStr and that increases to 86 to 91.

For the +3 base damage from Black Belt to reach +1% base damage, total base damage needs to be 300 or less. Factoring out base skill and weapon, that means a WSC total of 210-215 or less, which would require less than 500 str. That is almost certainly the case, so Black Belt is equal/better than the elemental belt at this point.

To reach 1.4%, total base damage needs to be 215 or less. Factor out base skill/str and you need 125-130 WSC, which would require 300 str. Once again, almost certainly the case, so Black Belt is still better.

To reach 1.8% (no DA/TA, capped attack) you'd need total base to be 166 or less. Factor out skill/str and you need 75-80 WSC, which would require around 180-190 str. You will almost certainly be reaching this point if using VV atma, and should with the lower str atma set of RR+GH+AoA as well with a decent ws set. At this point, the elemental belt is better.

Just to add to this, Ele belt also adds accuracy to all hits (includes the DA/TA'd hits if I'm not mistaken.) I find that for some of the harder Hero NMs, like Indrik, acc is not capped and this helps a lot. Other than that I think keeping around a good STR belt like Beir+1 works best for times you're easily accuracy capped. (Stalwarts, older zones, or outside abyssea altogether.)

[EjinCaitsith]

So, it's dependent on the average number of hits in the WS that gain the WSC bonus to push it over fTP bonus?

WS with lower average # of attacks like: ukko's, fudo, sidewinder, ascetic's, would all benefit from WS belt fTP more than extra mods applied to boost the WSC?

[Cream Soda]

It's based on both the % Mod from WSC, and the FTP (not to be confused with number of hits).

For example, side winder is only 1 hit, but it's 5.0 FTP, only .4 behind Victory smite. (Vsmite is 2.4 ftp first hit then the other 3 hits are 1 each). So looking for total ftp, not necessarily number of hits.

[NynJa]

I thought that gorgets also less useful on WS's with a high fTP...such as changing a 5.0 to 5.1 is much less impact than changing 1.5 to 1.6, or am I mistaken on that?

[Cream Soda]

I thought that gorgets also less useful on WS's with a high fTP...such as changing a 5.0 to 5.1 is much less impact than changing 1.5 to 1.6, or am I mistaken on that?

You are 100% correct

[EjinCaitsith]

It's based on both the % Mod from WSC, and the FTP (not to be confused with number of hits).

For example, side winder is only 1 hit, but it's 5.0 FTP, only .4 behind Victory smite. (Vsmite is 2.4 ftp first hit then the other 3 hits are 1 each). So looking for total ftp, not necessarily number of hits.

If i'm reading this right, it all comes down the # of hits that gain the WSC bonus that don't gain the fTP bonus. VS has 3 hits that gain WSC bonus over fTP bonus on belt. Ukko's, on the other hand, only has 1 attack that doesn't gain a fTP boost from the belt, which makes belt better than addition WSC boosts?

[Byrthnoth]

Thanks for bringing this information out again and making it its own thread. People seem to keep asking about it. Magic WSs also worked for this testing, with the same idea. If A = .1 and B = A then B = .1

As far as the WS discussion:
Some weaponskills get the majority of their damage from Mods/base damage, and some from fTP. Gekko, for instance, is actually a very low fTP Weaponskill compared to any multi-hit. It gets most of its damage from the high mods. Therefore, fTP increase is a great way to increase its damage. Asuran Fists, for instance, has shit mods and really high fTP. +.1 fTP. WS Damage+2% would beat the Gorget on that.

Still, it's all about alternatives. Neck WS options pretty much suck (Crit+3 is the best option?). Belt WS options don't suck.


PS. Don't DC right now. I keep getting "cannot connect to lobby server" errors. Was just about to start Orthrus too ; ;

[Cream Soda]

If i'm reading this right, it all comes down the # of hits that gain the WSC bonus that don't gain the fTP bonus. VS has 3 hits that gain WSC bonus over fTP bonus on belt. Ukko's, on the other hand, only has 1 attack that doesn't gain a fTP boost from the belt, which makes belt better than addition WSC boosts?

It has nothing to do with number of hits directly. The total FTP of the ws is what matters.

Let's say you have a 5 hit ws w/ 1.0 ftp mod (the other 4 also get 1.0) = 5 ftp

now we have a 1 hit ws w/ 5.0 ftp = 5.0 ftp.

Adding a gorget or belt would have the exact same impact on both of these.


The lower your total FTP, the more you gain from gorget/belt. The higher your FTP, the less you gain. Multi hits indirectly effect this since they generally have higher ftp.

[mdkuser]

Just to add to this, Ele belt also adds accuracy to all hits (includes the DA/TA'd hits if I'm not mistaken.) I find that for some of the harder Hero NMs, like Indrik, acc is not capped and this helps a lot.

In which case anguinus belt is incredibly better. Useless belt for monk. I bet that in dia3+high haste situations where boost slows you DPS due to the inherent 1sec delay being not worth capping attack this belt beats black belt too by a large margin.

[rog]

It has nothing to do with number of hits directly. The total FTP of the ws is what matters.

Let's say you have a 5 hit ws w/ 1.0 ftp mod (the other 4 also get 1.0) = 5 ftp

now we have a 1 hit ws w/ 5.0 ftp = 5.0 ftp.

Adding a gorget or belt would have the exact same impact on both of these.


The lower your total FTP, the more you gain from gorget/belt. The higher your FTP, the less you gain. Multi hits indirectly effect this since they generally have higher ftp.

Well, not quite. .1 ftp does more for a multihit ws, since you won't always land every hit (and if a single hit misses, you get nothing at all).

[mdkuser]

Well, not quite. .1 ftp does more for a multihit ws, since you won't always land every hit (and if a single hit misses, you get nothing at all).

And why is that specific to multihit ws ? Facepalm.

[rog]

And why is that specific to multihit ws ? Facepalm.

Because if one hit misses in a single hit ws, you get nothing from it, but if one hit misses in a multihit ws, you get even more out of it.

[mdkuser]

You are an idiot. In both cases you get 0.1 ftp bonus 95% of the time.