LBC nerfing hypothesis.

[ringthree]

I believe that the individual Archaic Gear or some combination of Gear rooms or wings may have specific effects on Homing Missile. Different people have reported different effects from Homing Missile when they have killed 9/10 or fewer of the Gear. Most recently, we killed one Gear in the first room, then we had one Gear warp out, then killed the other 8. This caused Homing Missile to have it's normal effect (full damage and hate reset) on one person but no AoE except for a small amount of normal nerfed splash damage.

Anyone else remember which gears that warped away and the effect it had on Homing Missile?

[BlackMoomba]

Just did LBC yesterday. Our Brd came Sch today because we were lacking 1 of our Rdms. First pull he decide to try and pull with Dia, which resulted in magic aggro. We killed all the others til last room where 1 warped on us. So we killed 8/10, missing 1 in first room and 1 in last room.

When we fought LBC, only one HM got off and it was only single target Throat Stab effect, I only took like 400 dmg, so that was very helpful. Killed in 11mins, got boned on drops tho, freaking marduks hands and morrigans crown

[Therin]

I also think I've noticed varying effects, though I don't have enough information to give a specific instance of it. I also feel that the Chariot weakens the attack power of him, I know that's been disputed but his melee hits went from 400-600 crits on a MNK to 200-400, which is certainly noticeable.

[BlackMoomba]

We do west F4 chariot. I don't notice attack down really because the only time I ever really get hit is TP moves, but the def down (which is a duh already) was very noticeable yesterday, took him down 10% in like 30 secs.

[ringthree]

I also think I've noticed varying effects, though I don't have enough information to give a specific instance of it. I also feel that the Chariot weakens the attack power of him, I know that's been disputed but his melee hits went from 400-600 crits on a MNK to 200-400, which is certainly noticeable.

Chariot on West side decreases defense, magic defense and evasion. East is supposed to decrease accuracy, attack and damage.

We did a 10/10 gear and West Chariot weakened LBC last week in less than 4 minutes, with 7 people, all decently geared but no nothing outstanding and without revitalizers.

Killing West Chariot takes about 3 minutes, and for us saves more time than it costs us, so we kill it to get a little more time in the Rampart.

[mackerel]

I've fought some 8/10-9/10 weakened LBCs that started out with Homing Missile as a single target throat stab, and later the same LBC did 20' AoE 200 damage Homing Missile.

[aurik]

Chariot on West side decreases defense, magic defense and evasion. East is supposed to decrease accuracy, attack and damage.

Still no proof of this as far as I know.

[ringthree]

Chariot on West side decreases defense, magic defense and evasion. East is supposed to decrease accuracy, attack and damage.

Still no proof of this as far as I know.

Proof of which? Of East Chariot? Or of both? If you kill West Chariot, it's pretty obvious of the change, my group usually kills LBC in about 8 minutes, the two times we have killed West Chariot it has been under 5 minutes, with the most recent time being right about 4 minutes.

I can't really think of a good way to prove it outside of it just being really obvious when you do it. I could try to parse it after killing the West Chariot, but I don't know how helpful that is going to be because I wouldn't have a baseline to compare it to, and after my group has seen how weak it is after killing the West Chariot it is going to be hard to convince them not to kill it to get a new baseline.

If you just mean East Chariot, I suppose that I could get my group to try to do east side, but again it might be tough to convince them to do that. I literally haven't done the east side of Bhaflau since the day Salvage was released.

[ringthree]

I've fought some 8/10-9/10 weakened LBCs that started out with Homing Missile as a single target throat stab, and later the same LBC did 20' AoE 200 damage Homing Missile.

That is interesting, do you remember if that was an 8/10 or 9/10 LBC that it switched? On our latest 9/10, it was all the same Homing Missile effect, it never varied.

[Therin]

If you just mean East Chariot, I suppose that I could get my group to try to do east side, but again it might be tough to convince them to do that. I literally haven't done the east side of Bhaflau since the day Salvage was released.

Huh, I literally ALWAYS do east side. <_> Maybe should try West, next time.

[ringthree]

If you just mean East Chariot, I suppose that I could get my group to try to do east side, but again it might be tough to convince them to do that. I literally haven't done the east side of Bhaflau since the day Salvage was released.

Huh, I literally ALWAYS do east side. <_> Maybe should try West, next time.

Wow, I didn't know anyone did East Side? Could you help me out, I need to fix the BGWiki for the East Side after the first floor. What are the mobs there and what are there drops?

I also thought of something, because I doubt anyone has ever done it before, but I wonder if killing all the triple gears in the Chariot room has any effect on LBC... it would mean wasting time for the 4F Rampart but I think I am willing to risk it next time.

[Therin]

If you just mean East Chariot, I suppose that I could get my group to try to do east side, but again it might be tough to convince them to do that. I literally haven't done the east side of Bhaflau since the day Salvage was released.

Huh, I literally ALWAYS do east side. <_> Maybe should try West, next time.

Wow, I didn't know anyone did East Side? Could you help me out, I need to fix the BGWiki for the East Side after the first floor. What are the mobs there and what are there drops?

I also thought of something, because I doubt anyone has ever done it before, but I wonder if killing all the triple gears in the Chariot room has any effect on LBC... it would mean wasting time for the 4F Rampart but I think I am willing to risk it next time.

Erm, I meant the East side on the fourth floor Chariot only.

We go West on the first floor, Southeast portal on the second floor, East portal on the third floor, and zone up on the East side on the fourth floor. You can get up there and take out the East side Chariot without opening the East door on the first floor, can't you?

Or does the first door inherently change the entire run, and I'm just not realizing? <_>

I know it's different mobs on the first floor but I always assumed that the mobs/layout on the second floor and above was the same, just different cell drops.

As for the triples, I was wondering that myself. I maybe feel like they're just there to provide a bit of a roadblock/annoyance. What else would there be left to nerf? LBC's low percent TP gain, or maybe double attack rate?

[Bakthi]

You can do whatever you want on the 3rd floor. Regardless of whichever side you picked on 2F, you can zone up to the east or west side of 4F. My group typically goes 1Fwest, 2F SE, 3F, 4Fwest. I feel like LBC is safer if it dies faster, so I prefer the west side. My MNKs tell me they definitely noticed it started hitting a lot harder after we changed from east to west (killing the chariot on each side), and I believe them.

As far as the 1F choice changing everything, the 2 sides converge on the same portal up to 2F. The 3 "wings" on 3F that you passed over on 2F will be closed off, and of course you can't change sides once you've ported up to 4F, but otherwise one floor doesn't really influence the next.

[Therin]

As far as the 1F choice changing everything, the 2 sides converge on the same portal up to 2F. The 3 "wings" on 3F that you passed over on 2F will be closed off, and of course you can't change sides once you've ported up to 4F, but otherwise one floor doesn't really influence the next.

Okay, that's what I thought. Thanks for clearing that up.

[aurik]

Chariot on West side decreases defense, magic defense and evasion. East is supposed to decrease accuracy, attack and damage.

Still no proof of this as far as I know.

Proof of which? Of East Chariot? Or of both? If you kill West Chariot, it's pretty obvious of the change, my group usually kills LBC in about 8 minutes, the two times we have killed West Chariot it has been under 5 minutes, with the most recent time being right about 4 minutes.

I can't really think of a good way to prove it outside of it just being really obvious when you do it. I could try to parse it after killing the West Chariot, but I don't know how helpful that is going to be because I wouldn't have a baseline to compare it to, and after my group has seen how weak it is after killing the West Chariot it is going to be hard to convince them not to kill it to get a new baseline.

If you just mean East Chariot, I suppose that I could get my group to try to do east side, but again it might be tough to convince them to do that. I literally haven't done the east side of Bhaflau since the day Salvage was released.

It's not proof until you've provided a parse. "Obvious" is how directional/moonphase/elemental-resistance theories get started.

[Kaeko]

West chariot lowers magic defense? Is this just resist rates or damage too?

[ringthree]

Chariot on West side decreases defense, magic defense and evasion. East is supposed to decrease accuracy, attack and damage.

Still no proof of this as far as I know.

Proof of which? Of East Chariot? Or of both? If you kill West Chariot, it's pretty obvious of the change, my group usually kills LBC in about 8 minutes, the two times we have killed West Chariot it has been under 5 minutes, with the most recent time being right about 4 minutes.

I can't really think of a good way to prove it outside of it just being really obvious when you do it. I could try to parse it after killing the West Chariot, but I don't know how helpful that is going to be because I wouldn't have a baseline to compare it to, and after my group has seen how weak it is after killing the West Chariot it is going to be hard to convince them not to kill it to get a new baseline.

If you just mean East Chariot, I suppose that I could get my group to try to do east side, but again it might be tough to convince them to do that. I literally haven't done the east side of Bhaflau since the day Salvage was released.

It's not proof until you've provided a parse. "Obvious" is how directional/moonphase/elemental-resistance theories get started.

I think that standard is a bit ridiculous, because even a parse won't prove anything without a doubt. A parse can only be interpreted like anything else, its just another tool for examining evidence, it does not provide absolute proof.

If you still doubt it, I would suggest trying it, because the difference is clear. I am not saying that it is without a doubt. Obviously it is not. If you want to say that it still hasn't been "proven" thats fine, but to suggest that it is "unproven" without at least some kind of evidence to the opposite is just as bad. There are no real burdens of proof for one side or the other. I mean if you don't want to kill the Archaic Chariot then by all means, skip it. I just think it is at least beneficial to bring it up here for people that want to try it.

[ringthree]

West chariot lowers magic defense? Is this just resist rates or damage too?

Honestly, I used magic defense because I didn't know how to word it better, but my only experience is with enfeebles and Bio. So magic defense may not be the correct word, but I didn't know what exactly to call lowering its resist rate. Though, actually testing max damage may be interesting also (we haven't done that yet, but we could have Ninjafox nuke it a couple of times next time to test).

[Therin]

West chariot lowers magic defense? Is this just resist rates or damage too?

Honestly, I used magic defense because I didn't know how to word it better, but my only experience is with enfeebles and Bio. So magic defense may not be the correct word, but I didn't know what exactly to call lowering its resist rate. Though, actually testing max damage may be interesting also (we haven't done that yet, but we could have Ninjafox nuke it a couple of times next time to test).

Magic evasion! <_>

[aurik]

Chariot on West side decreases defense, magic defense and evasion. East is supposed to decrease accuracy, attack and damage.

Still no proof of this as far as I know.

Proof of which? Of East Chariot? Or of both? If you kill West Chariot, it's pretty obvious of the change, my group usually kills LBC in about 8 minutes, the two times we have killed West Chariot it has been under 5 minutes, with the most recent time being right about 4 minutes.

I can't really think of a good way to prove it outside of it just being really obvious when you do it. I could try to parse it after killing the West Chariot, but I don't know how helpful that is going to be because I wouldn't have a baseline to compare it to, and after my group has seen how weak it is after killing the West Chariot it is going to be hard to convince them not to kill it to get a new baseline.

If you just mean East Chariot, I suppose that I could get my group to try to do east side, but again it might be tough to convince them to do that. I literally haven't done the east side of Bhaflau since the day Salvage was released.

It's not proof until you've provided a parse. "Obvious" is how directional/moonphase/elemental-resistance theories get started.

I think that standard is a bit ridiculous, because even a parse won't prove anything without a doubt. A parse can only be interpreted like anything else, its just another tool for examining evidence, it does not provide absolute proof.

If you still doubt it, I would suggest trying it, because the difference is clear. I am not saying that it is without a doubt. Obviously it is not. If you want to say that it still hasn't been "proven" thats fine, but to suggest that it is "unproven" without at least some kind of evidence to the opposite is just as bad. There are no real burdens of proof for one side or the other. I mean if you don't want to kill the Archaic Chariot then by all means, skip it. I just think it is at least beneficial to bring it up here for people that want to try it.

If you show a parse with like, 80% accuracy vs 95% accuracy for the melees with the same jobs/songs/food/gear, that's pretty conclusive.

It's unproven precisely because people have been saying it for ages, but never posted any evidence. Just like crafting compasses. Eventually people accept them as true, but nobody can really say why it's true.

As for trying it myself, we did like 40 bhaflau runs last year and I can say I've never really noticed that effect. We're capped on boss drops, have been for a long time, so we generally don't kill them.