SAM/NIN tanking.

[diemos]

The thought occurred to me.. thought I'd throw it out there as an idea.

Pros

• Lots of HP

• Access to lots of Haste gear: Dusk hands, turban, Fuma Sune-ate, etc..

• Access to Arhat/+1 gear

• Access to Enmity+ gear: Eris' earring, SAM AF2, Warwolf belt

• Ability to keep and hold hate: Damage (from what I read correctly about that translated JP article, damage is #1 Enmity product)

• Doing damage while keeping hate

• Pre-existing job abilities: Seigan+Third Eye for when you Can't keep shadows up, Meditate to further help hate

• High parrying: It actually does kick in..

Cons

• Untested

• ?

Discuss.

[Zanz L. Barre The 3rd]

Eh, doesn't magic recast get hindered when using Seigan/Third Eye? And I'd imagine it would be hard to hold hate via dmg w/o berzerk on mobs that this would be considered revolutionary on.

[Undeadhunter]

I think Seigan + third eye is the "OH SHIT" function
use shadows and only use those if for example your recast isn't up

[diemos]

Eh, doesn't magic recast get hindered when using Seigan/Third Eye? And I'd imagine it would be hard to hold hate via dmg w/o berzerk on mobs that this would be considered revolutionary on.

Ahh.. it does! But that is ohshi-.. Most of the time you should have Hasso up to help with recasts. 3E generally lasts long enough for your Co-tank to grab hate and for you to get shadows/timers back up.

[Eaglestrike]

Eh, doesn't magic recast get hindered when using Seigan/Third Eye? And I'd imagine it would be hard to hold hate via dmg w/o berzerk on mobs that this would be considered revolutionary on.

Ahh.. it does! But that is ohshi-.. Most of the time you should have Hasso up to help with recasts. 3E generally lasts long enough for your Co-tank to grab hate and for you to get shadows/timers back up.

Hasso increases recasts too.

[Woozie]

SAM tanking can be quite hilarious.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e2...ryuPlusOne.jpg

[Tiernin]

http://rukenshin.livejournal.com/16046.html#cutid6

Ruk talked about sam/war tanking a bit in his last update(Mid way through in the sam section). Seems viable in some HNM that can be meleed. It would require a very good defensive build to work though because you ARE gonna get hit.

I don't think /nin would be the best option though. Sam/war offers more hate control through dmg and provoke, as well as defender.

I tank quite a bit in exp and for the most part siegan works pretty well. The randomness of it can be frustrating but exp mobs die so fast that when it fails the mob usually dies shortly after. Hasso is so nice, I just wish I could use it more w/o being an MP sponge lol.

[Eaglestrike]

I'd do sam/pld over /nin. Cause you can have an oshit move in Sentinel, flash if Third Eye goes down too quick and such.

[Yutuyu]

SAM is actually a very good tank, here's why:

- SAM has the most damage reduction gear in the game.

Sure, NIN gets access to Arhats which is very nice, but so does sam, and in addition to that they get Gavial Gear which has even more physical damage %- on it, vit, and decent defense.

- Seigan and Shadows

It's actually not very hard at all to keep Seigan and Hasso from hurting your shadow recasts. If you start casting with Seigan/Hasso up, you get the longer cast effect but *not* the longer recast effect.

Utsusemi spells actually overwrite third eye, allowing you to use that to get them up. The longer cast time makes it easy to cancel Seigan before Utsusemi Lands.

- SAM WS hate

You can deal enough damage with WS in order to hold hate in most situations if you're given help with TA+WS or SATA as well.

[Kooldac]

tbh, I never really thought it was a good "tank". I mean, I have soloed all the way to VTs with sam/nin but that doesn't really mean it is a good "tank". The survivability factor is pretty good /nin simply because utsusemi overrides third eye. Maybe if the alliance had a decent amount of /thf to add some hate, I dont see anyone holding hate.

[RKenshin]

I'm not really sure what level of SAM tanking you're talking about but, I've been tanking mobs for the majority of the time I spend on SAM and it really works rather well. However subbing NIN isn't necessary for it to work, and in some situations I wouldn't even recommend relying on Utsesumi over Third Eye.

As far as /WAR goes... Over the last like ~6 months or so I just Provoke stuff out of habit to start the fight, which makes tanking a lot easier (and more reliable). In exp/dynamis I'm using it almost constantly as soon as it's ready. Me starting off a fight with Provoke+a WS basically glues the mob onto me for it's life in exp/Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar, and allows me to time Third Eye more accurate. The biggest mistake most people make with Third Eye is they use it whenever the recast is ready regardless of having hate, and that leaves room for you pulling hate late into the duration and having it wear off after one anticipate/counter more often. The best way to do it is to use it only when you're about to have a mob glued to you, be it right at the start of a fight when you Provoke or right when you WS, that way you get the highest odds of anticipating/countering multiple times. But that also is one of the problems with /NIN, since you won't have a steady form of hate. While provoke isn't reliable in itself, I don't feel that just the WS/melee damage is either, but together it's a different story.

And, as the post above me said... SAM can get a load of -damage taken, and it really makes a significant difference in your survivability and how much MP is spent to keep you alive. Third Eye can go a long way to reducing the damage you take while tanking but, it's not possible for you to 100% avoid it, so a set of damage reduction gear is really important IMO if you seriously do tank often on SAM. Unfortunately, most SAMs just don't invest in a set.

Anyway, there are some situations I find Third Eye to be a little more dependable/easier to manage. In particular tanking fast attacking mobs like MNKs or mobs that use Hundred Fists. It's impossible to keep shadows up and recasts ready in time for those situations, so Third Eye's mechanics work out really well. In dynamis in particular I'll often tank MNKs doing this if a PLD isn't available, starting the fight with Provoke+WS and then switching to damage reduction gear. IIRC the highest number of anticipates I had in a row was 28. And, I also really like Seigan for Chariot tanking now in Salvage. Unlike Utsesumi it doesn't get cleared off by the AoE spam the chariots have so it's much easier to manage.

All in all though it works great as a tank for many situations if you have the right gear for it. I've been doing it in just about every situation over the last ~almost year now and never had any problems or roadblocks.

Gotta run so leaving it at that for now!

[Terrifyingstorm]

I'm not really sure what level of SAM tanking you're talking about but, I've been tanking mobs for the majority of the time I spend on SAM and it really works rather well. However subbing NIN isn't necessary for it to work, and in some situations I wouldn't even recommend relying on Utsesumi over Third Eye.

As far as /WAR goes... Over the last like ~6 months or so I just Provoke stuff out of habit to start the fight, which makes tanking a lot easier (and more reliable). In exp/dynamis I'm using it almost constantly as soon as it's ready. Me starting off a fight with Provoke+a WS basically glues the mob onto me for it's life in exp/Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar, and allows me to time Third Eye more accurate. The biggest mistake most people make with Third Eye is they use it whenever the recast is ready regardless of having hate, and that leaves room for you pulling hate late into the duration and having it wear off after one anticipate/counter more often. The best way to do it is to use it only when you're about to have a mob glued to you, be it right at the start of a fight when you Provoke or right when you WS, that way you get the highest odds of anticipating/countering multiple times. But that also is one of the problems with /NIN, since you won't have a steady form of hate. While provoke isn't reliable in itself, I don't feel that just the WS/melee damage is either, but together it's a different story.

And, as the post above me said... SAM can get a load of -damage taken, and it really makes a significant difference in your survivability and how much MP is spent to keep you alive. Third Eye can go a long way to reducing the damage you take while tanking but, it's not possible for you to 100% avoid it, so a set of damage reduction gear is really important IMO if you seriously do tank often on SAM. Unfortunately, most SAMs just don't invest in a set.

Anyway, there are some situations I find Third Eye to be a little more dependable/easier to manage. In particular tanking fast attacking mobs like MNKs or mobs that use Hundred Fists. It's impossible to keep shadows up and recasts ready in time for those situations, so Third Eye's mechanics work out really well. In dynamis in particular I'll often tank MNKs doing this if a PLD isn't available, starting the fight with Provoke+WS and then switching to damage reduction gear. IIRC the highest number of anticipates I had in a row was 28. And, I also really like Seigan for Chariot tanking now in Salvage. Unlike Utsesumi it doesn't get cleared off by the AoE spam the chariots have so it's much easier to manage.

All in all though it works great as a tank for many situations if you have the right gear for it. I've been doing it in just about every situation over the last ~almost year now and never had any problems or roadblocks.

Gotta run so leaving it at that for now!

The lord has spoken.

[diemos]

I'm not really sure what level of SAM tanking you're talking about

Personally, I was referring to everything. Not as a main tank though, more of a backup or co-tank. If you're a remotely good SAM you usually end up tanking stuff in exp from WS to death, but I was thinking on bigger terms. It wouldn't work on Tiamat very well, or anything that flies at all. But more for something stationary, or that just doesn't move around as much.

but, I've been tanking mobs for the majority of the time I spend on SAM and it really works rather well. However subbing NIN isn't necessary for it to work, and in some situations I wouldn't even recommend relying on Utsesumi over Third Eye.

You have almost every SAM who plays this game modeled after yourself, and you failed to put this in your LJ guides? Duuuude </3

As far as /WAR goes... Over the last like ~6 months or so I just Provoke stuff out of habit to start the fight, which makes tanking a lot easier (and more reliable). In exp/dynamis I'm using it almost constantly as soon as it's ready. Me starting off a fight with Provoke+a WS basically glues the mob onto me for it's life in exp/Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar, and allows me to time Third Eye more accurate.

In HNM stuff, maybe like Cerberus for example, wouldn't /NIN be more viable? (This is what I see this being used for) I don't see /WAR having... well.. any advantage when WS spamming. I'm not just talking about tanking for 30 seconds then going off to Meditate once your tanks gain hate over you, I mean there, the whole fight, face to face, damage and all.

The biggest mistake most people make with Third Eye is they use it whenever the recast is ready regardless of having hate, and that leaves room for you pulling hate late into the duration and having it wear off after one anticipate/counter more often. The best way to do it is to use it only when you're about to have a mob glued to you, be it right at the start of a fight when you Provoke or right when you WS, that way you get the highest odds of anticipating/countering multiple times. But that also is one of the problems with /NIN, since you won't have a steady form of hate. While provoke isn't reliable in itself, I don't feel that just the WS/melee damage is either, but together it's a different story.

Agreed! I was in sea last night, just messing around when our tank died, they asked me to come /NIN since I pull hate so often. Personally, I usually go Ni > Ichi > Ichi/Ni/ThirdEye+Seigan. By the time Third Eye+Seigan has dropped, your co-tank should be able to pull hate off you just to get recasts down. Seigan can be cancelled, so you can take it off just before Utsu recasts.

SAM can get a load of -damage taken, and it really makes a significant difference in your survivability and how much MP is spent to keep you alive. Third Eye can go a long way to reducing the damage you take while tanking but, it's not possible for you to 100% avoid it, so a set of damage reduction gear is really important IMO if you seriously do tank often on SAM. Unfortunately, most SAMs just don't invest in a set.

I've actually overlooked that set >< Any pics for some damage reduction with your D.Ring? How much does this really help?

Anyway, there are some situations I find Third Eye to be a little more dependable/easier to manage. In particular tanking fast attacking mobs like MNKs or mobs that use Hundred Fists. It's impossible to keep shadows up and recasts ready in time for those situations, so Third Eye's mechanics work out really well. In dynamis in particular I'll often tank MNKs doing this if a PLD isn't available, starting the fight with Provoke+WS and then switching to damage reduction gear. IIRC the highest number of anticipates I had in a row was 28. And, I also really like Seigan for Chariot tanking now in Salvage. Unlike Utsesumi it doesn't get cleared off by the AoE spam the chariots have so it's much easier to manage.

All in all though it works great as a tank for many situations if you have the right gear for it. I've been doing it in just about every situation over the last ~almost year now and never had any problems or roadblocks.

Gotta run so leaving it at that for now!

Three words: Livejournal, guide, now. <3

[TB]

The real question is: Why?

We have RDM/NIN
We have NIN/DRK
We have PLD/NIN

We don't need any new tanks...

Only thing this is usefull, is when you pull hate as SAM, which happens quite often. Get yourself a damage reduction gearset to not get killed every 5 minutes and focus on DD'ing...

[diemos]

Maybe people don't wanna level PLD? Or have a billion pieces of gear for NIN?

How about something different? I'm almost positive it can be done, maybe not as well as PLD, NIN, or RDM.. but it could still be fun for those who want to break away from the norm.

It's not really about "why", it's more about "Why not?".

[Undeadhunter]

The real question is: Why?

We have RDM/NIN
We have NIN/DRK
We have PLD/NIN

We don't need any new tanks...

Only thing this is usefull, is when you pull hate as SAM, which happens quite often. Get yourself a damage reduction gearset to not get killed every 5 minutes and focus on DD'ing...

you forgot NIN/RDM for stuff like cerb & khim ^^b

besides, it's fun to try new things, dont have to keep stuck on the same old stuff

[Yutuyu]

My damage reduction set isn't really that good, it's incomplete, but what I use is:

- Gavial Greaves (def, vit, -2% Physical damage taken)
- Gavial Cuisses (def, vit, -3% Physical damage taken)
- Arhat's Gi
- Arhat's Jinpachi
- Jelly Ring
- Seiryu's Kote

There's lots of room for improvement. An ideal set would be:

- Gavial/Hydra Greaves +1 (-3% physical damage taken)
- Gavial/Hydra Cuisses +1 (-4% physical damage taken)
- Arhat's Gi +1 (-9% physical damage taken)
- Arhat's Jinpachi +1 (-6% physical damage taken)
- Earth Staff (-20% physical damage taken)
- Defender Ring (-10% physical damage taken)
- Jelly Ring (-5% physical damage taken)

You can put your GKT right back on after Third Eye is up again. Plus if you were really serious about this, you can merit third eye so your recast is 25 seconds instead of 30.

For a total of -57% damage taken (-47% for those without access to D Ring).

You can build a pretty damn good damage resistance set with that. There's also a lot of magic damage taken %- gear a SAM can get. Amir is what, 8% or 9% or something? Most of the elemental resistance items are wearable by sam (god stuff and random weird items).

So the question is, why NOT use sam for some things? No tank should ever have a had problem if they can be SATA'd, and SAM generates enough hate on their own via WS.

[TB]

It's called Defending Ring and Physical Damage Taken-% gear caps at 50%.

[RKenshin]

In my post I was speaking towards more of the type of endgame that I see most linkshells doing now, where they spend the majority of their time doing instanced-style events like Salvage/Einherjar/Dynamis/Limbus/Sea+Sky Gods/etc over the kings. Which is a lot like my shell, since we just about never kill the kings anymore.

As far as the harder tanking situations like HNM fights go, I'm pretty sure SAM is doable as a tank but... It's not something I'd rely on as a primary tank. Even if you did SATA/whatever to help them hold it. However as a sub tank it does work ok but more because of their damage output and less because of them trying to tank. On the only Fafnir I've had a chance to go on as SAM (since we almost never camp kings) I tanked about 1/3rd of the fight without using Provoke over a PLD/NIN and a RDM/NIN, but that wasn't on purpose D:... Just about the same scenerio happened at Cerberus as well, and the result was the same.

All and all, as far as tanking something like Cerberus/Fafnir goes, I don't think SAM would be ideal as a main tank anyway. Or at best it'd probably take more support than a normal tank would (IE, both COR rolls+BRD songs to be most effective). It would probably require /NIN to work best in that situation too, since not being able to avoid taking any damage over a 10-60m fight would hurt your hate accumilation. Especially when most tanks can get to the hate cap. However the loss of /WAR would also hurt as far as damage/hate capabilities go.

So yeah, in the end I'm sure it probably could work but... It's most likely not going to be worth the trouble or work as a practical alternative. But if you want to do it for a change/for fun, by all means!

To address the results of my damage reduction gear... It's basically the same as the results I post on my LJ about the damage my NIN takes. My SAM uses all the same gear as my NIN so it's the same amount of damage reduction. So just about all mobs I'd normally tank hit anywhere from 60 to 180 max depending on their difficulty. Even the Salvage Chariots tend to max out for about 100-160.

[Falaras]

Just about any job can tank these days with /nin. Personally in Salvage my LS uses a Drk/nin and me on Sam/nin to tank Chariots besides LBC. The drk will gain hate through Stun if hate needs to be stabilized, and I'll just go all out for hate. Without the dual tank it wouldn't work but with it works pretty well in my opinion. Only use Seigan/Third Eye as a fall back generally with Elegy and such I can keep Utsu up fairly easy (I only use +14% haste).