Subtle Blow

[Pali]

I was wondering if anyone knew some concrete info on the amount of TP reduced per hit on the Traits of this.

The general agreement is that 1 Subtle Blow = 0.1 TP reduced per hit, but how much do the individual traits gives?

Also, does Store TP affect how much TP is given to the mob? If Mob gains Your TP gain +2, then would Store TP have affect inside that equation? If so, wouldn't the Rajas Ring be a bit redundant?

"Reduces the amount of TP given to enemy when striking them" I'm assuming this doesn't affect magic such as Elemental Jutsus with Nin?

Thanks for any input in advance.

[rooster]

I believe that every 5 subtle blow is about 1 tp.

[Zigma]

when i was duoing someone on my nin in barrista, after i won (duh) i asked how come he didnt even rampage me (he was a war)

He said he had no tp, i said "dude i was hitting you like crazy) and he said "Every 2 swings = 1tp" or something.

[layoneil]

it's suppose to be 1% reduction for Subtle Blow and 1% addition for Store TP.

[Pali]

Do the individual Traits act as Subtle Blow +1 for each trait? That's not as good as I assumed then.

[rooster]

get a 75 bard... take subtle blow gear and hit a mob... charm it and see..

it was 1tp for ever 5 SB 6months ago

[layoneil]

get a 75 bard... take subtle blow gear and hit a mob... charm it and see..

it was 1tp for ever 5 SB 6months ago

that's because 1 TP also happened to be 5%, further test have shown it's definitely not as linear as 5 = 1 TP.

Do the individual Traits act as Subtle Blow +1 for each trait? That's not as good as I assumed then.

the first Store TP Trait is +10, each one after is +5. i don't know if it's the same for Subtle Blow.

[nivlakian]

A thread that makes mention of subtle blow tp gain:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html ... 1680&num=1

I went then and changed subjob to nin with subtle blow 1

9% staff -> mob had 11% tp after 1 hit.

7% axe -> mob had 9% tp after 1 hit.

subtle blow reduces mob tp gain by 1 per your hit.

A thread about how store TP works:
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html ... 3438342183

Here's how it really works. I've done extensive testing (I'll include my notes at the end of this), and it's fairly obvious, once you get past a few hurdles.
If this has already been posted before, I'm sorry, I didn't see it. At any rate, an additional post on the subject couldn't hurt, considering how many are misinformed about the topic.

Every time you receive a new Store TP job trait, your skill is set to a certain level. These are the levels:
Level 10 Samurai: Store TP = 10
Level 30 Samurai: Store TP = 15
Level 50 Samurai: Store TP = 20
Level 70 Samurai: Store TP = 25 [I haven't been able to confirm this, personally, but I've heard convincing reports toward it - feel free to experiment]
None of these are nerfed in any way by subbing SAM. It's exactly the same (proportionate to your SAM level, of course).

Whenever you equip something with a Store TP+ value on it, that value goes toward your skill (obvious enough).
So, if you're a level 50 Samurai and you equip the Shinimusha Haidata, you have Store TP at 20+6=26. If you equip both the Haidate and Hara-ate, you have Store TP at 20+9+6=35. If you're a WAR/SAM at level 30 equipping the Katana Obi, you get 10+1=11. Simple enough.

Whenever you hit something, or you get hit (yes, Store TP does affect TP gained when hit, too, though it's obviously much less noticable), you get a base TP gain depending on your weapon's delay (or a flat 2.1% if getting hit - this is unaffected by your weapon). Here's a few base values:
Getting Hit: 2.1%
Delay 195: 5.3%
Delay 236: 6.3%
Delay 450: 11.3%
Delay 504: 12.3%

Assuming you have Store TP (ie. you're a level 10 Samurai, or a 20+ job subbing Samurai), you'll get an additional percentage of the base TP. This percentage is, surprise, your Store TP value. If you have Store TP at 20, you get an additional 20%. If you have Store TP at 35, you get an additional 35%.
A few more examples, in the case of a level 50 Samurai wearing the Shinimusha Haidate (Store TP = 26):
Getting Hit: 2.6% (base 2.1%)
Delay 195: 6.6% (base 5.3%)
Delay 236: 3.9% (base 6.3%)
Delay 450: 14.2% (base 11.3%)

Obviously, the higher the delay of your weapon, the greater the effect of Store TP.
What this means is that with a full Shinimusha set and a 450 Delay weapon, at level 50-69, you'll be gaining 15.2% TP per hit, as opposed to 13.5% without the set. You'll also gain 2.8% every time you get hit, as opposed to 2.5%.

That may not seem like a lot at first, but add it up through a few rounds, and it's a very noticable difference. Not Godly in any way, no, but certainly better than what most people describe the Shinimusha set as: Useless.



Below are my test notes. They're not very pretty (even less so here than in my text file), as they were meant only for myself, but at least they should indicate that I'm not pulling these numbers out of my ass. Peruse at will.

----

29THF,D195: 5 10 15 21 26 31 (33) 39 44 49 55 60 (62) 67 73 78 83 89 94 99 104 = 5.3%
30WAR,D195: 5 10 15 21 26 31 - 42 47 53 (55) - 65 71 76 81 86 92 97 102 = 5.3%
42SAM,D195: 6 12 18 24 30 36 42 48 54 60 66 72 78 84 90 96 102 = 6.0%
52SAM,D195: 6 12 18 25 31 37 = 6.3%
52SAM,D195: 6 13 19 26 33 39 46 52 59 66 72 79 85 92 99 105 = 6.6% (Store TP+6)
29THF,D236: 6 12 (14) 21 27 33 39 46 52 58 65 71 77 84 90 96 102 = 6.3%
14SAM,D236: 6 13 20 27 34 (36) 43 50 57 (59) 66 73 = 6.9%
15SAM,D236: 6 13 20 27 - 41 = 6.9%
15SAM,D236: 6 13 20 27 34 41 48 = 6.9% (Store TP+1)
42SAM,D236: 7 14 21 28 36 43 50 57 64 72 79 86 93 100 108 115 122 = 7.2%
52SAM,D236: 7 15 22 30 37 45 = 7.5%
52SAM,D236: 7 15 23 31 39 47 55 63 71 = 7.9% (Store TP+6)
No Store TP (theoretical), D450: = 11.3%
42SAM,D450: 12 25 38 51 64 77 90 103 116 129 141 = 12.9%
52SAM,D450: 13 27 40 54 67 81 = 13.5%
52SAM,D450: 14 28 42 56 71 = 14.2% (Store TP+6)
30WAR,D504: 12 24 36 49 61 73 86 98 110 = 12.3%
15SAM,D504: 13 27 40 54 67 81 94 108 = 13.5%
15SAM,D504: 13 27 40 54 68 81 95 108 = 13.6% (Store TP+1)

42SAM,Def D195: 2 4 7 9 12 14 16 19 21 24 26 = 2.4%
29THF,Def D236: 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 21 23 25 27 29 31 33 35 37 39 42 44 46 = 2.1%
14SAM,Def D236: 2 4 6 9 11 = 2.3%
15SAM,Def D504: 2 4 6 9 11 = 2.3%
42SAM,Def D236: 2 4 7 9 12 14 16 19 21 24 26 28 31 33 36 = 2.4%
42SAM,Def D450: 2 4 7 9 12 14 16 19 21 24 26 = 2.4%
52SAM,Def D450: 2 5 7 10 12 = 2.5%
52SAM,Def D450: 2 5 7 10 13 15 18 20 = 2.6% (Store TP+6)

(Note: I make no claims about the accuracy of the statements contained within those threads)


Edit: Anyway, interesting questions... just need to find a BST and people with the right jobs to try it out i guess.

[Pali]

If Store Tp and Subtle Blow are reverse of each other, and assuming Store TP affects Mob TP gain too, Rajas Ring seems really redundant, i guess its a free 0.5 TP per hit without the mob gaining it though, but you won't see the mob gaining less TP.

[layoneil]

If Store Tp and Subtle Blow are reverse of each other, and assuming Store TP affects Mob TP gain too, Rajas Ring seems really redundant, i guess its a free 0.5 TP per hit without the mob gaining it though, but you won't see the mob gaining less TP.

i'm pretty sure Mob TP is calculated independent of Store TP bonuses.

[divisortheory]

When I experimented with Store TP, it seemed to me that every hit had a CHANCE of giving me 1 extra TP. It was not always linear though. Sometimes it would take 5 hits to get 1 extra TP, sometimes it would take more. Because of this, I concluded that Store TP works as follows:

You have Store TP +X.
The server includes a non-decreasing function f(X).
When hitting a mob, you have an f(X) percent chance of getting 1 extra TP.

(For the record, I have also tested Conserve MP, and it works has this "activation percentage" property as well.)

Now, if this is true, it would be a safe bet that Subtle Blow works as follows:
You have Subtle Blow +X
The server includes a non-decreasing function g(X), and a slightly random function h(X).
When hitting a mob, you have a g(X) percent chance of giving the mob h(X) fewer TP than you normally would.


You could estimate the effects of this behavior over time and say something like "Store TP 5 is 0.1 extra TP per hit", but most people don't swing at the same monster 7,000 times. It's more practical to able to know what happens in the short run rather than the long run.


Cliffs Notes
- The higher your Store TP, the greater your chance of it activating.
- When it activates, you get extra TP on that hit.

- The higher your Subtle Blow, the greater your chance of it activating.
- When it activates, you give the mob fewer TP on that hit.

[Nagamaki]

Store TP and Subtle Blow are both permanently effective, not activation chances.

I went out on some Too weak Tundra Tigers (Kirata PHs, not totally wasting my time here ) and did comparisons as MNK75/BST37.

I have Rajas Ring (+5), Melee Gloves (+4), Melee Crown (+6), Melee Hose (+5) and Black Belt (+5) for a total of +25 Subtle Blow (also +1 on Meteor Cesti but didn't bring those).

I'll keep testing to find somewhat more exact numbers, but some things are pretty obvious right away.

First basic observations, this was already mentionned in other posts : weapon delay affects the TP given. With just bare hands (or 0 delay cesti) is less TP than with a fast weapon, and a fast weapon is less TP than a slow weapon. Guessing there's an exact decimal value per delay range.

Since I'm MNK75 all these tests include the reduction from the job trait itself, so tests without subtle blow gear are still actually reduced TP.

No Subtle Blow
Bare hands 12% (6 per fist)
Cross-Counters 13%

Maxed (+25)
Bare hands 8%
Cross-Counters 9%

Going to do tests with WS and multihit WS, and with Tp over a series of hits next.

Oh and something I already knew but that's nice to confirm, Chi Blast gives 0% TP regardless of damage.

[Nagamaki]

Tested WS TP given, after testing Shoulder Tackle, Combo, Raging Fists and Asuran Fists multiple times each I can state this : a WS will give the same amount of TP as a melee round would with your current equipment and Subtle Blow level, regardless of how many hits the WS is or how many hits land.

ie with Cross-Counters and all my SB stuff all my WS give 9% TP, with Cross-Counters and none of my SB stuff all my WS give 13%.

*edit* this bit I totally did not expect, but Subtle Blow affects TP given by spells too (tested as WHM/BST). Rajas Ring makes all my damage spells give 9% TP instead of 10% TP

[Rawr]

So it's different from you gaining TP? I thought multiple hit WS gives more TP return. Like dancing edge 8+1+1+1+1 (that's not the exact numbers)And the +1 is for every extra hit except the first one.

[Nagamaki]

OK after all my tests here's what I can state as fact :

TP gain and TP given

When you hit a mob, you and the mob will gain a base amount of TP based on your current attack delay (AD). This AD includes Job Trait speed modifiers like Martial Arts and Dual Speed, but not Haste/Slow gear or spells/songs. The TP you gain is proportionnal to AD, faster = less per hit but same amount of TP as a slower weapon over time assuming both always hit and no other modifiers come into play.

This is why a Lv75 MNK gets less TP gain per hit than a Lv1 MNK with the same weapons.

Whatever the amount of TP you gain per hit, the mob will gain the same amount + 3.

Dagger gives you 5%, mob gets 8%. Naked WHM punching gives you 12%, mob gets 15%. Sword hit gives you say 7.2%, mob gets 10.2%. Spells that deal damage directly when cast (Dia, Bio, all nukes, Drain.. But not Choke/Burn/..) give 10%.

WS TP gain is actually quite simple. On your side, TP is based on hits. You get full TP from the first hit (or first 2 hits with HTH or Dual Wield) and 1% TP per extra hit. The mob gets the same amount of TP it would get from a normal melee round regardless of hits. So if you use a staff that gives the mob 13% normally, all staff WS will give 13%. If you use HTH (without subtle blow) that does 2 hits that each give 8% (5+3), all HTH WS will give 16% base. 1 hit or 8 hits, it doesn't matter.

Store TP

The additionnal TP you gain from Store TP works as explained in the quote earlier in this thread. +20 Store TP means you gain 120% of the base TP return of your AD. If a staff hit would normally give you 10%, you'll get 12%. A dagger hit for that normally gives 5% would give you 6%. This bonus TP for you does NOT affect mob TP. The 10% base TP return hit will still give the mob 13% even if you get 12% through Store TP. On WS Store TP will affect the TP from the initial hit, but not the 1% per hit extra ones.

Subtle Blow

Subtle Blow works the same way Store TP does, except its a % of reduction applied to mob's TP instead of an increase to yours. A HTH hit that gives you 5% TP gives the mob a base amount of 8%. With +25 Subtle Blow, the mob will gain 75% of the amount, so 6%. A staff hit that would give 13% will give 9.75%, and so on.

Based on my calculations, MNK75 gets 25 Subtle Blow from Job Traits gained over levels. I don't know the exact spread of upgrades, but MNK gets Subtle Blow at lv5 for the 1st time. I'm *guessing* NIN75 gets 20 Subtle Blow, since their first Subtle Blow is at Lv15 (I tested lv5 and lv15 by subbing them on lv19 and 30 jobs). A NIN75 with BST sub could easily test this, my NIN is only 55 so I can't get the end game numbers myself.

Subtle Blow applies to ALL ways in which you directly give the mob TP, melee WS or spells. Pet actions are not affected (avatar melee, anything BST pets do, wyverns).

Stuff that doesn't give TP at all

Chi Blast
Avatar Blood Pacts (all BPs, avatar melee hits do give TP though)

Other ways mobs gain TP

Mobs get a small amount of TP, based on their delay, from hitting you. Tigers in Beaucedine seem to get approximaly 6.2% TP per hit. Overall this means in most situations you give the mob a lot more TP by attacking it than what it gets by attacking you.

Certain mobs, especially NMs, clearly also gain TP other ways, through permanent meditate, or while sleeping and so on. This is easily observed, but can't be quantified since you can't charm everything to see <pettp>.

Also mobs don't always use their TP when they hit 100%, timers and randomness come into effect. TP amount presumably affects their WS strength however.