Keyboard(musical) buying help

**Fereydoon** · 2010-02-21 03:21

So I'm attempting to find an 88-key keyboard for under $200. I've only found a midi controller for 200 though (This was amazon) and one for 150 on craigslist with a broken key and two that didn't work.. So needless to say I'm failing.

So can any of you help me find one? I don't know if there are better sites I just don't know about etc lol.

Edit: Also things I should avoid like the plague and such.

**Woozie** · 2010-02-21 08:36

Originally Posted by fereydoon

So I'm attempting to find an 88-key keyboard for under $200.

Not going to happen.

The sites you should be checking are zzounds, guitarcenter.com, samash.com, and amazon.com. Also try using google product searches. A lot of local music shops will match the lowest cost you can find online and ship for free, so it may be a good idea to find the lowest online price, then show it to a local music price so you can get the online pricing without paying shipping.

What exactly are your goals for using this keyboard? Since you didn't want a midi controller, then I assume you're buying a piano to use as a musical instrument in the normal sense (as opposed to using it just for the sake of music production).

In this case, you want something as close to a real piano as possible. Obviously nothing can perfectly emulate an acoustic piano, but what you want to do is come as close as possible.

Don't go to craigslist. Buy a new instrument.

You may want to look under "digital pianos" instead of "keyboards" when shopping around online. A digital piano is just a keyboard specifically designed to feel and sound like a real piano. They typically have less instruments than a keyboard (digital pianos will have between 3-20 [though some have much more] whereas a keyboard will have every general midi sound (at least 128 instruments, but typically up to 500+).

There's also another class of instruments separate from "digital piano" and "keyboards" called "music workstations". These cost thousands of dollars and have every sound a basic keyboard has plus much more. In addition, each of the sounds are typically very high quality (whereas keyboard sounds are usually very crappy). Workstations have other functionality such as mixing utilities (delay/reverb/etc) and sequencing functionality. Basically they have nearly any functionality and sound a music producer would need to create an entire song. Obviously this isn't what you're looking for, but I just want you to be aware of anything you'll run into while shopping around.

Even though digital pianos typically lack the quantity of sounds and some other features or basic keyboards, the piano sound of a digital is typically much higher in quality (the piano samples on a digital piano can be as great as those on a workstation). Also, digital pianos typically have weighted keys which are designed to come as close to the feel of a real piano as possible.

So if you want to come as close to a real piano as possible, digital piano is the way to go. I assume the amount you want to spend is low (based on your post).In my personal opinion, the best low end digital piano for its price is the casio privia. It will probably run you at least 400 dollars (which is very cheap for a digital piano). Of course, you do get what you pay for, but that's not to say the privia is a bad instrument. It wont be nearly as good for the $700~$1000 range piano, obviously, but it's one of the best deals in the 400~600 price range. It's much better than the William's Overture in my opinion.

Typically, if you find a casio and a yamaha at the same price, you'll want the yamaha (though I don't think you'll find one as low as the privia). Avoid M-Audio digital piano. Their midi controllers are awesome, but their digital piano sucks in my opinion. It's may be tempting since it is the absolute cheapest digital piano you'll ever find (one of them costs less than the privia), but it's really not worth it. I dont like the sound or feel of M-Audio's digital piano, and from what I hear, break easily. There's also a cheap Casio CDP, which is also cheaper than the privia and should also be avoided (again, I don't like the way it sounds or feels). Basically, you should be either paying the amount a privia costs, or buying something more expensive than a privia. Don't go for anything cheaper.

There's a Yamaha YPG-535 with 88 keys that is barely higher than the privia. I know I said yamaha is typically better than casio for a given price, but in this case, do not get the yamaha. It sounds great and all, but the keys are not fully weighted. They call it "soft touch" action, or something like that. I call it "not fully weighted so why bother?". Though it's sound is better than that of the privia.

The william's overture I mentioned earlier is also about the same price of the privia, and it is a pretty good piano for that price range. I prefer privia over the overture as a matter of personal taste. You can go to samash or the guitar center and try them both out yourself. You may like the Overture better.

The next tier of keyboards are in the $550/600~$1000. In my opinion, yamaha is the king of this price range. If you're spending this amount of money, the brand of keyboard you should come home with is a yamaha. The only debate should be which yamaha, not which brand of piano to buy. There are casios/korgs/rolands/williams/maudios in this range though, but I just prefer the yamahas for this range.

You wont see a *huge* jump in quality between the low tier pianos listed earlier (less than about 550), and the mid tiers (under 1000). So if it were me, I'd just buy something lower end, though if you have the cash, a 700 dollar yamaha is a pretty sweet instrument. Just make sure what you're buying is weighted (as opposed to soft touch, or semi-weighted, etc. Fully weighted or

)

Once you're paying in the thousands, pretty much every option is awesome. In this range you're going to be choosing between yamaha, korg, and roland. I don't know if casio has anything in this range, but if they do it probably isn't worth it. I'm a HUGE fan of the yamaha clavinova. The YDP series is pretty awesome too.

I think every digital piano you'll ever buy has midi capabilities. Some of them have USB capabilities, which is extremely convenient. If your digital piano doesn't have usb connections, then you'll need a midi to usb cable to connect to your computer (if you ever decide to). Just be aware of this while shopping around.

Side note: If you buy a privia, you'll want to buy a pedal too. The priva comes with the pedal, but the pedal it comes with is freakin retarded. It doesn't look or feel like a real pedal. In fact, if you're wearing shoes you can't even use the pedal (because the pedal is so weak that you can hardly tell if you're actually depressing the pedal or not). Get a basic M-audio pedal if you buy a casio privia.

Edit: Another side note: Some digital pianos are called "stage" pianos. This just means that instead of designing them to look as close to a real piano as possible, they've instead designed them to be more easily portable. But in terms of feel and sound, a digital stage piano is the same as a digital piano.

E.g: clavinova

Spoiler: show

Privia

Spoiler: show

The privia is basically a big box shaped thing that you can sit on top of a stand or something, so some may call it a stage piano due to the fact that it was designed to be portable.

Privia price

William's Overture (You can probably find it cheaper if you look around)

M-Audio Pedal

Piano Forums

Yamaha YDP series (cheapest of the series, I think)

Mid Range Yamaha Note that my definition of low/mid/high range is different than others. Some may consider anything less than 1000 as low 1000 dollars is nearly a tenth of what I make per year, so it's pretty high to me. I base my tiers more on the price ranges where I see noticeable changes in quality, though I guess that's somewhat subjective.

Edit: Also, another thing to look at when shopping around is polyphony. Polyphony is the maximum amount of notes you can play at the same time. If you go above this limit, you'll notice notes dropping out. Some people would suggest going as high as 64~128. I personally have never noticed a problem on instruments with only 32 note polyphony (though I suppose if you layer the sounds, you'll then only have 16 notes of polyphony, which will be problematic).

Don't forget, you can (and should) go to the music stores and try the pianos out by hand. You can also view demos of pretty much any instrument on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K4K-A65lxU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd16rm8u7oo

You really need to hear one of these in person though. I could play one of these forever. Any youtube video doesn't do it justice. Not to say it didn't sound great on the video, I'm just saying you really need to play one of these yourself.

Also, he spends a lot of time on these videos showing other instruments. The only one I care about is the piano sound. In fact, all of my assessments made in this thread was based solely on the piano sound of the instrument and not on the other instrument sounds they come with.

If you type in any piano on youtube, you'll probably get some demo or review. You can also google the words and get demos from the website (e.g. http://www.priviapiano.com/demonstrations/ As you can see, there are a few different types of privias. The px120 is the cheap one

http://www.williamspianos.com/products/overture.cfm has an overview of their instrument, but no demos).

**kuronosan** · 2010-02-21 10:17

Originally Posted by fereydoon

So I'm attempting to find an 88-key keyboard for under $200. I've only found a midi controller for 200 though (This was amazon) and one for 150 on craigslist with a broken key and two that didn't work.. So needless to say I'm failing.

So can any of you help me find one? I don't know if there are better sites I just don't know about etc lol.

Edit: Also things I should avoid like the plague and such.

Good luck. You won't find an 88-key for under $500 that's any good. Check guitarcenter.com or even Bestbuy. If you're looking to shop used then I really can't help you there.

Yamaha's P85 is a pretty good one for the money.

Just buy new. You have nothing to lose.

Don't treat buying a keyboard like buying a used iPod. They're a lot more sophisticated than that. I've had my current keyboard about 7-8 years now and it still works just as good as it did on day 1. Usually when people ditch keyboards it's because something isn't working or they're looking for a better one.

Hell, I'd sell you mine for about $150 if I had the money to buy a new one.

**Fereydoon** · 2010-02-21 17:25

Originally Posted by Woozie

What exactly are your goals for using this keyboard? Since you didn't want a midi controller, then I assume you're buying a piano to use as a musical instrument in the normal sense (as opposed to using it just for the sake of music production).

I'd want to use it for both but my main goal is to use it as a musical instrument. Only reason I decided to stay away from the midi controller is I have no experience with them whatsoever. Also the only one I found in my price range was this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...pf_rd_i=507846 But it says semi-weighted and you warned against that.. :\

I guess I'll just have to wait awhile for a keyboard. I would spend more, the only problem is I only have 200 to spend. xD Me and my mom are moving out soon so we're saving money for that.

**archibaldcrane** · 2010-02-21 17:29

Originally Posted by Woozie

Spoiler: show

Jesus christ dude.

**Woozie** · 2010-02-21 17:34

Originally Posted by fereydoon

I'd want to use it for both but my main goal is to use it as a musical instrument. Only reason I decided to stay away from the midi controller is I have no experience with them whatsoever. Also the only one I found in my price range was this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...pf_rd_i=507846 But it says semi-weighted and you warned against that.. :\

I guess I'll just have to wait awhile for a keyboard. I would spend more, the only problem is I only have 200 to spend. xD Me and my mom are moving out soon so we're saving money for that.

Midi controllers typically don't have onboard sounds, so they can only be used when hooked to the computer. The link you posted has no onboard sounds. What you're going to want is a keyboard that also happens to have midi capabilities (pretty much any keyboard will have a midi in/midi out, so you'll just need a midi to usb interface. If your computer has USB connectivity, then all you'll need is a printer cable or whatever type of cable fits).

**Woozie** · 2010-02-21 17:35

Originally Posted by archibaldcrane

Jesus christ dude.

I have nothing better to do this weekend D:

**Fereydoon** · 2010-02-21 17:48

Originally Posted by Woozie

Midi controllers typically don't have onboard sounds, so they can only be used when hooked to the computer. The link you posted has no onboard sounds. What you're going to want is a keyboard that also happens to have midi capabilities (pretty much any keyboard will have a midi in/midi out, so you'll just need a midi to usb interface. If your computer has USB connectivity, then all you'll need is a printer cable or whatever type of cable fits).

But if I plug a controller into my computer would I be able to play it like an instrument? I wouldn't really know a program for that.. Because I wouldn't mind having it connected to my computer for now.

**Woozie** · 2010-02-21 18:21

Well yeah, if you plug it in you could play just fine if you have some piano samples on your computer. Here's some free yamaha C7 samples. Of course, you'd have to already have a sampler to use these (and I don't know of any free samplers). You could either buy them or pirate them. But if you're going to be pirating, you can find much better pianos than a yamaha C7 (demonoid and thepiratebay has some good Bosendorfer and Steinway samples. Yamaha C7 is actually a really good piano in my opinion, but it definitely isn't top tier. I think Alicia Keys uses the Yamaha C7). I use the Kontakt sampler.

If you want to record your performance for later playback, you can use some sort of digital audio workstation (DAW) that accept VSTs (I think Reason is the only one that doesn't). So get something like pro tools/fl studio/cubase/etc, and open your sampler in that program to record your performance as a midi file. Then you can export that midi file as an MP3 or WAV or something. That way you have recorded performances of yourself, and it will sound like you were playing a Steinway D or a Bosendorfer Imperial or something.

If you don't want to bother with the DAW, I'm sure there are ways to capture any audio that your computer is playing. Sort of like a fraps for audio only or something. Then you can hit the record function on whatever software does that, and then just play.

If you don't care about recording yourself, then all you need is the sampler and some samples.

**Fereydoon** · 2010-02-21 18:25

Hmm. Should I get that then? It's the only thing relatively within my price range. At least until I can get more money for something else. I do have Audacity and Mixcraft so workstations aren't a problem. Samplers I'd have to find though..

**Ksandra** · 2010-02-21 18:28

Small question since you wouldn't be able to get a good 88-key keyboard for 200$.

Are you against having an actual piano?

I've found (in fact I feel we talked about this on bg before) that people think keyboards are cheaper so they try to get one without thinking of the real deal.

It is actually pretty easy to get a real piano for free. They are hard to move, so often when people are moving they throw their piano up on craigslist/newspaper, in hopes that someone will take it so they don't have to deal with it.

The obvious downside to this is it requires you to find a way to move it, and you may need to get a piano tuner to tune it.

It's nevertheless something to look into, so you should check out piano moving prices (and tuners) in your area to see if you can do it for about 200 if you find a free piano.

**Fereydoon** · 2010-02-21 18:30

Originally Posted by Ksandra

Small question since you wouldn't be able to get a good 88-key keyboard for 200$.

Are you against having an actual piano?

I've found (in fact I feel we talked about this on bg before) that people think keyboards are cheaper so they try to get one without thinking of the real deal.

It is actually pretty easy to get a real piano for free. They are hard to move, so often when people are moving they throw their piano up on craigslist/newspaper, in hopes that someone will take it so they don't have to deal with it.

The obvious downside to this is it requires you to find a way to move it, and you may need to get a piano tuner to tune it.

It's nevertheless something to look into, so you should check out piano moving prices (and tuners) in your area to see if you can do it for about 200 if you find a free piano.

I'll definitely look into that. But as of now I really don't have anywhere to put a piano. :\ And I have no idea if I'll have room in the apartment we're moving to, won't get complaints etc.

**Woozie** · 2010-02-21 18:33

I would recommend against buying a midi controller instead of an instrument, personally. I personally wouldn't like to only be able to play my keyboard when I'm at the computer. But if you feel differently about it, then go ahead.

If your computer is decent (it doesn't have to be great, just okay. Heck, barely even okay) then this should work fine for the most part. If your system is crappy, you may end up having to choose between buffer underruns vs too much latency, and your RAM may not be able to handle the sampler well. As long as you have a half decent processor and at least 2GB RAM, you wont have those problems.

**Woozie** · 2010-02-21 18:36

Originally Posted by Ksandra

Small question since you wouldn't be able to get a good 88-key keyboard for 200$.

Are you against having an actual piano?

I've found (in fact I feel we talked about this on bg before) that people think keyboards are cheaper so they try to get one without thinking of the real deal.

It is actually pretty easy to get a real piano for free. They are hard to move, so often when people are moving they throw their piano up on craigslist/newspaper, in hopes that someone will take it so they don't have to deal with it.

The obvious downside to this is it requires you to find a way to move it, and you may need to get a piano tuner to tune it.

It's nevertheless something to look into, so you should check out piano moving prices (and tuners) in your area to see if you can do it for about 200 if you find a free piano.

Free pianos can be incredibly hard to get into workable shape. By the time he gets all the necessary repairs done he will have spent enough to buy a few digital pianos. If he's extremely lucky, he can get one that just needs to be tuned. Maybe things are different in different regions, but around here, the free pianos on craigslist usually aren't worth it. Usually they're pianos that haven't been taken care of for years or even decades. In some cases it may be cheaper to just buy a used upright than to get a free one and get it into shape (and of course, a used upright piano will cost as much as multiple digitals).

If he knows the right people, he can bring someone with him to check it out and estimate the cost of repairs before he gets it.

**Fereydoon** · 2010-02-21 18:38

Hmm. My computer is.. Almost.. that? T_T I need a new computer as well but that's a discussion for a different thread.

I'm not adverse to having it by my computer. I spend a lot of time near it anyway. And it's in my room so it wouldn't be a bother to anyone else. I might have to get a stand and place it on that near my computer. I doubt I'd have enough deskspace.. hmm. Is that a good midi controller though? It's the only one in my price range. xD Or should I just wait til I have more money?

**Woozie** · 2010-02-21 18:40

If I was you, I'd either wait until I can afford a good digital, or do what Ksandra said (if you can find a free piano that wont cost a ton to repair. Acoustics are a lot more fun to play than any digital).

**Woozie** · 2010-02-21 18:55

If you're considering getting an upright, here's something you want to read

http://www.pianoadoption.com/frequen..._questions.htm

I'm not exaggerating when I say you could literally spend thousands to get a free upright into usable condition.

It depends on what you want. As it stands the piano is probably worth between $0 and $500 and all components have considerable wear. Assuming that the basic structure such as pinblock, soundboard, and bridges are sound, you could spend perhaps about $2500 to $2800 for partial rebuilding and have the piano restrung, have new hammers, damper felt, and bridle tapes put on the action, and have the keys rebushed. If the other action parts such as hammer butts, shanks, and whippens are in fairly reasonable condition and not becoming brittle with age that's the minimum to get you a musical instrument that will probably sound very good and play decently.

http://www.pianoworld.com/value.htm

I'm not trying to deter you from this option, I'm trying to convince you that if you do decide to do this, you should be very careful about it. I could go on forever about why acoustics are better than digital. So if you can get a good upright, it's definitely worth the time and effort (and the money you'll put into getting it into shape). Just don't expect your free piano to be free (or even cheap).

**Fereydoon** · 2010-02-21 18:56

I suppose I'll wait or check for pianos. (not gonna check very hard though. Even if I could get one not destroyed for free/cheap I doubt I'd have space for it. xD) Thanks a ton though! Good advice for when I get the money to buy one. :D

**isladar** · 2010-02-21 19:08

Originally Posted by Woozie

If your computer is decent (it doesn't have to be great, just okay. Heck, barely even okay) then this should work fine for the most part. If your system is crappy, you may end up having to choose between buffer underruns vs too much latency, and your RAM may not be able to handle the sampler well. As long as you have a half decent processor and at least 2GB RAM, you wont have those problems.

Latency, even with a lot of memory, with MIDI is a really big issue. Especially if you are running a really good Steinway pack (which you should be). I found latency to be an issue even with the KX-8 which connected via USB, but the point is that consider the computer you'll need to run a controller.

If you're doing in-house studio work, a weighted! MIDI is fine. Stage pianos can be pricey, but have the advantage of on-board sounds.

[edit]: Also fuck you, Woozie, where were you last week when I made my music thread :/

And for what the OP seems to be saying, going the route of trying to build up a computer music station might be going backwards. Once I got comfortable with DAWs and samplers and VSTs and whatnot was when I moved off the pianoroll and started looking for a controller.

**Woozie** · 2010-02-21 19:23

Yeah, that's definitely true. I try to make it somewhat manageable. Obviously I'm using ASIO drivers but that's not nearly enough. When it comes to piano, what I usually do is turn the speakers on my computer off and record based on the sounds from my actual instrument. That way I don't have to worry about latency.

But when it's not a piano solo, it can be so frustrating trying to record. I usually turn the buffer length down low enough where the latency is tolerable, then try to use my imagination to fill in the gaps when I get those underruns that make my instrument sound like a blender. It makes things 100x more difficult, but it (eventually) gets the job done.

But I guess he wouldn't have the first option since controllers have no onboard sounds.

I've actually seen people with setups that have negligible latency while not having issues with buffer underruns. I don't know how they do it. I have a somewhat decent computer. I just assumed that if he had a better computer than I, then he would have much less problems than me. But I'm sure your computer is way better than mine, so if you also have those problems, then I guess I was wrong.

Edit: I had asked for a ban last week for studying. Also, I don't know as much about microphones, so I wouldn't have been very much help.

Edit 2: I've actually used the MXL 990 before (well I don't know if it was a 990. It was an MXL something but I don't remember what it said. I think it was the same mic.

I thought the microphone was okay for its price. It wasn't worse than what I expected a microphone of that price to be (my friend paid less than 100 dollars for it). Just out of curiosity, what didn't you like about it?

If you want suggestions, I know someone I could have called to ask about it. But he uses really expensive microphones (his cousin owns a studio). I seriously doubt he's ever used the two you were choosing between.

I've never used the two microphones you were choosing between.

Edit 3: My bad, I'm an idiot. You asked about midi controllers in that topic. Since I have a digital piano, I haven't used very many midi controllers (and I can't remember if I've ever used one with 88 keys that are fully weighted). The M-Audio digital piano I bashed earlier in this topic would suffice for that purpose (since you're using it as a controller, you wont care that the onboard sound sucks). I think it runs like $300. Not sure if that's cheaper than the yamaha you posted, but it doesn't have all the extra controls you would expect on a midi controller, so I guess it's not a good suggestion.

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