The Religion Thread (I hate you guys)

[Aksannyi]

I just think it's so fucking funny because Christianity is not being persecuted in this country. These assholes don't even know what religious persecution fucking looks like.

[Melena]

I just think it's so fucking funny because Christianity is not being persecuted in this country. These assholes don't even know what religious persecution fucking looks like.

Yeah, I mean it's not like ISIS is going around in countries they have a foothold in, taxing christians for being christian, putting bullets in their heads, etc. All we are doing is telling Christians they can't make laws that force their beliefs on the rest of the country.

[Anoat]

Huckabee is going full on "war on christianity!" and it's pretty sad.

[Marootsoobutsu]

Yeah, I mean it's not like ISIS is going around in countries they have a foothold in, taxing christians for being christian, putting bullets in their heads, etc. All we are doing is telling Christians they can't make laws that force their beliefs on the rest of the country.

WHEW! And since other places flat out execute or imprison you if you're gay, we have no problems with homophobia in America!

While I think that it's pretty silly for Christians in America to act like they are beleaguered, set-upon victims of moral atrocities, it's kind of silly to say that there isn't a war against their values-- something they see as persecution. Y'all just think that it's a fight Christians deserve to lose.

And it's not their beliefs-- it's their values. The one stems from the other, but they are not the same. Similarly, you are not trying to force your beliefs on me, but you very much want the nation to have a law-system based on your values. Are those informed by your beliefs? Sure, whether it's a lack of religious beliefs, a belief that science has all answers/enough answers (note: I am not equating this with religious belief, not am I saying that trusting the scientific method is an irrational belief; I also believe that 1+1=2-- I'm not using faith and belief synonymously here).

I don't think there is a war against Christian beliefs, and I don't think that Christians are, in America, dealing with authentic persecution. But I *very* much believe that there is an attack against Christian values. Unfortunately, I also think that the Christian Church itself is the single greatest ammunition available, and the Christians are using it against themselves. It's a decadent, indulgent, unaccountable Church we have bred, and I'm not sure that, as a Christian, I have a problem with it being attacked. It deserves it-- probably not for the reasons folks on BG would cite, but the point remains.

[Tyche]

That sounds like a whole lot of bullshit with zero clear examples. What Christian values are being legislated out? And whose values do we want a law system based on? Mine personally? Muslim? Atheist? Ambiguous much? What values are being attacked?

[Aksannyi]

No there isn't. Christian values are to love thy neighbor and not to judge others, because that's God's job. Christian values also center on forgiveness for one's sins.

Christian "values" like keeping the gays from getting married are nothing but pure bigotry. I've read plenty of the Bible in my life, as I did attend a Catholic school from Kindergarten up through 12th grade. There's nothing there about shunning people for their beliefs or lifestyle, or turning people away for how they live. In fact, Jesus Christ actively sought out the ones that other people shunned, like the tax collectors, the lepers, Mary Magdalene, etc. These were people pushed away by society because they didn't live the traditional "Christian lifestyle," and yet, Jesus welcomed them with open fucking arms and didn't tell them they were going to burn in hell for their perceived sins. No, he fucking forgave them and accepted them, and taught others to do the same.

So Christianity that spews hate can eat a dick. I don't identify as a Christian anymore, but I know enough about it to know that these people are all full of fucking shit. They're using one shitty line in the Bible that may or may not even be translated that well ("a man shall not lie with a man" or whatever the fuck) to justify turning people away and ignoring all of the other fucking teachings of God and Jesus Christ. Fuck that.

[kuronosan]

WHEW! And since other places flat out execute or imprison you if you're gay, we have no problems with homophobia in America!

While I think that it's pretty silly for Christians in America to act like they are beleaguered, set-upon victims of moral atrocities, it's kind of silly to say that there isn't a war against their values-- something they see as persecution. Y'all just think that it's a fight Christians deserve to lose.

And it's not their beliefs-- it's their values. The one stems from the other, but they are not the same. Similarly, you are not trying to force your beliefs on me, but you very much want the nation to have a law-system based on your values. Are those informed by your beliefs? Sure, whether it's a lack of religious beliefs, a belief that science has all answers/enough answers (note: I am not equating this with religious belief, not am I saying that trusting the scientific method is an irrational belief; I also believe that 1+1=2-- I'm not using faith and belief synonymously here).

I don't think there is a war against Christian beliefs, and I don't think that Christians are, in America, dealing with authentic persecution. But I *very* much believe that there is an attack against Christian values. Unfortunately, I also think that the Christian Church itself is the single greatest ammunition available, and the Christians are using it against themselves. It's a decadent, indulgent, unaccountable Church we have bred, and I'm not sure that, as a Christian, I have a problem with it being attacked. It deserves it-- probably not for the reasons folks on BG would cite, but the point remains.

Sorry, but your beliefs are wrong. There is no "attack" on Christian values. Only an attack on the seemingly widespread belief that they are the *only* values worth "protecting".

[Tyrath]

Your beliefs don't hold a sway on what others are able to do. Christians are not being forced out of practicing their own religion. They are just being kept from forcing it on other people. That is not an attack on your beliefs or your values.

[Acevalefor]

No there isn't. Christian values are to love thy neighbor and not to judge others, because that's God's job. Christian values also center on forgiveness for one's sins.

Christian "values" like keeping the gays from getting married are nothing but pure bigotry. I've read plenty of the Bible in my life, as I did attend a Catholic school from Kindergarten up through 12th grade. There's nothing there about shunning people for their beliefs or lifestyle, or turning people away for how they live. In fact, Jesus Christ actively sought out the ones that other people shunned, like the tax collectors, the lepers, Mary Magdalene, etc. These were people pushed away by society because they didn't live the traditional "Christian lifestyle," and yet, Jesus welcomed them with open fucking arms and didn't tell them they were going to burn in hell for their perceived sins. No, he fucking forgave them and accepted them, and taught others to do the same.

So Christianity that spews hate can eat a dick. I don't identify as a Christian anymore, but I know enough about it to know that these people are all full of fucking shit. They're using one shitty line in the Bible that may or may not even be translated that well ("a man shall not lie with a man" or whatever the fuck) to justify turning people away and ignoring all of the other fucking teachings of God and Jesus Christ. Fuck that.

I read an interesting sermon from a seminary college professor here in Portland. It talked about the meaning of the laws of the Levites. First and foremost, they were not God's laws. They were socially accepted laws governing behavior to serve the common good. Specifically he talked about how "a man shall not lie with another mas as with a woman" is a warning against treating another man as if you own him. Because that's what women were to the Levites. They were worthless without a man behind them. It is a property and respect issue. Not a sexual issue. I wish I could find a text of the sermon online. It is really quite eloquently done. What I took from it is that this is what is being taught to hundreds, if not thousands of the next generation of church leaders. It is removing the teachings of bigotry and discouraging people from taking the bible so literally. It is teaching "this is the way it was then, and it was social law" and "this is the way it is now, and it has nothing to do with social laws from 2000+ years ago".

[Acevalefor]

Your beliefs don't hold a sway on what others are able to do. Christians are not being forced out of practicing their own religion. They are just being kept from forcing it on other people. That is not an attack on your beliefs or your values.

And their argument is that evangelism, recruiting, indoctrinating, etc. are core parts of their religion. They cannot practice their religion freely if they cannot share the good news of God. I have family members who are vehemently against any sort of law that limits the reach of religion into law. They prove that religion and politics should not mix every time they post or share anything on facebook.

[Tyrath]

Yeah and those things infringe on religious liberties of other people so those "beliefs" can get fucked.

[Ksandra]

As a Catholic, I fully believe that "Christian values being attacked" is so full of shit it could fill the grand canyon. Our country is not a Christian country. It is a country for all religions, and those that don't want to practice any religion. Fuck that noise that if a law isn't Christian than it must be attacking Christianity. Holy fuck is that dumb. I can't even. It should be law that any Christian who feels that way should be sent to live in a country with no religious freedom for a month to learn what a religious attack really is.

What disgusts me the most is how these types of Christians can't see how THEY are attacking other people's religions in this country with that mindset. Fuck that.

No there isn't. Christian values are to love thy neighbor and not to judge others, because that's God's job. Christian values also center on forgiveness for one's sins.

Christian "values" like keeping the gays from getting married are nothing but pure bigotry. I've read plenty of the Bible in my life, as I did attend a Catholic school from Kindergarten up through 12th grade. There's nothing there about shunning people for their beliefs or lifestyle, or turning people away for how they live. In fact, Jesus Christ actively sought out the ones that other people shunned, like the tax collectors, the lepers, Mary Magdalene, etc. These were people pushed away by society because they didn't live the traditional "Christian lifestyle," and yet, Jesus welcomed them with open fucking arms and didn't tell them they were going to burn in hell for their perceived sins. No, he fucking forgave them and accepted them, and taught others to do the same.

So Christianity that spews hate can eat a dick. I don't identify as a Christian anymore, but I know enough about it to know that these people are all full of fucking shit. They're using one shitty line in the Bible that may or may not even be translated that well ("a man shall not lie with a man" or whatever the fuck) to justify turning people away and ignoring all of the other fucking teachings of God and Jesus Christ. Fuck that.

Apparently, Catholics aren't Christians according to Baptists. So, don't expect them to grasp the good works mindset of the "heathens."

I do hate to bash other religions, since I am religious, but I have zero patience for a Christian sect who thinks I am going to Hell and spend more time pointing fingers at everyone than staring in the mirror.

[Gredival]

That sounds like a whole lot of bullshit with zero clear examples. What Christian values are being legislated out? And whose values do we want a law system based on? Mine personally? Muslim? Atheist? Ambiguous much? What values are being attacked?

It's undeniable that we are becoming a more secular society. Casual sex/sex outside of marriage, gay marriage, abortion, and teaching evolution in schools. To different groups of Christians these can all be indicative of moral decay of society brought on by "attacks" on traditional Christian values.

Also remember that to many of these people, the proper way to interpret the country's political structure starts from the fact that the founding fathers were Christian (ignoring, of course, that their Christianity was more deistic). These are the same people that created the argument "Freedom OF Religion is not Freedom FROM religion" and argue that separation of Church and State was meant to protect Christianity.

Apparently, Catholics aren't Christians according to Baptists. So, don't expect them to grasp the good works mindset of the "heathens."

I do hate to bash other religions, since I am religious, but I have zero patience for a Christian sect who thinks I am going to Hell and spend more time pointing fingers at everyone than staring in the mirror.

Don't want to derail this topic too much, but the conservative wing of the Catholic Church isn't much better on this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...0d4_story.html

I think the Catholic Church has a very rich history of social liberalism on everything but gay rights and the sexual revolution, but there's a significant portion of the Church that associates religion with social conservatism just like evangelicals.

[BaneTheBrawler]

For making me make this. This thread is one I've been reluctant to make because you guys have a tendency to be annoying about it. Keep the atheist discussion in the atheism happy hour thread. This one is for philosophical and cultural discussion, such as whether christian values are under attack and whether my god could beat up your god (he totally could, he works out).


That said... Keep it civil, as usual. Try to keep the Kim Davis bullshit in the Gay Rights thread, since that's what she's chosen to fight against.

[BaneTheBrawler]

Okay. Everything above my last post gets a pass on those restrictions because they were moved. Those that follow do not.

Unlocking now. Play nice.

[Psion]

It should be law that any Christian who feels that way should be sent to live in a country with no religious freedom for a month to learn what a religious attack really is.

If we actually did this, the overwhelming surge in religious population to such backward countries might force them to moderation... Having several million americans suddenly appear in some middle eastern country, with the threat of America retaliating if they were attacked might force said country to change. <_<;

[Churchill]

If we actually did this, the overwhelming surge in religious population to such backward countries might force them to moderation... Having several million americans suddenly appear in some middle eastern country, with the threat of America retaliating if they were attacked might force said country to change. <_<;

So basically what we're already doing, except on a larger scale.

[Psion]

Exactly! although it would be civilians instead of military, albeit militant Christian civilians. :D

(P.S. Bane, your new avatar terrifies me.)

[Ksandra]

It's undeniable that we are becoming a more secular society. Casual sex/sex outside of marriage, gay marriage, abortion, and teaching evolution in schools. To different groups of Christians these can all be indicative of moral decay of society brought on by "attacks" on traditional Christian values.

Also remember that to many of these people, the proper way to interpret the country's political structure starts from the fact that the founding fathers were Christian (ignoring, of course, that their Christianity was more deistic). These are the same people that created the argument "Freedom OF Religion is not Freedom FROM religion" and argue that separation of Church and State was meant to protect Christianity.



Don't want to derail this topic too much, but the conservative wing of the Catholic Church isn't much better on this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...0d4_story.html

I think the Catholic Church has a very rich history of social liberalism on everything but gay rights and the sexual revolution, but there's a significant portion of the Church that associates religion with social conservatism just like evangelicals.

Oh, I agree. I think it took way too long to work towards change. But that isn't surprising considering Vatican history. Those conservatives deserve reprimand as well. With that said, Catholicism is not really evangelical. There are some who are, don't get me wrong. But I think you will find that Catholics tend to not be extremely vocal about their beliefs. Though they probably will be for a bit because of the upset within the church.

[shepardG]

inb4 the lock