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  1. #1
    Sea Torques
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    Koga Hakama and Byakko's Haidate.

    In terms of delay reduction, are these equal? Or is there a different formulation that makes enchance dual wield superior to haste.....in terms of delay reduction, of course.

  2. #2

    Sweaty Dick Punching Enthusiast

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    Yes, theyre equal in terms of delay reduction. Both 5%

  3. #3
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celeras
    Yes, theyre equal in terms of delay reduction. Both 5%
    kthx.

  4. #4
    Sea Torques
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    Yea, equal but tp nerf from koga because of the dual wield change.

  5. #5
    Black Belt
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    If you're stacking more enhance dual wield after suppa and hakama you'll notice the TP difference (i.e: chainmail af1), so its Byakkos minus the dex and recasts benefit.

  6. #6
    Sea Torques
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    I have byakko's, I was just wondering if I should crave for a Koga Hakama....which I've concluded to be a no.

  7. #7

    correct.

    Even though the effective speed increase from the koga is slightly better than that from byakkos, it suffers from a lack of +15 dex and recast benefit.

  8. #8
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    Well...B.Pants are definitely 'better' all around. But as far as which one is 'faster' the answer is...it depends.

    My personal opinion of which is a better "DD peice" is that Koga > B.Haidate just based on the parsings I've done with my best in game friend. I always had 'better' gear but for some reason he always managed to parse a little better than me. Then he upgraded to B.haidate and swift belt (same as me) and I noticed his DoT fall just enough to be almost perfectly lined up with me. [i.e: within .75% of each other]

    Also, I believe it was Nny on pandy who I read tested AF body to be about 8.33% 'Haste' in level capped areas and something about checking TP returns.

    I saved this post but I forget where I got it from or who wrote it but it explains it pretty well I think.


    __________________________________________________ ___________

    I think the programming probably has it set that DW is calculated first, but that doesn't matter because they are both multiplied seperately. (Delay x .7 x .8) is the same thing as (Delay x .8 x .7)

    As far as which is faster, Dual Wield works like this:
    You add the delays of your katanas together, then multiply by the DW multiplier to get your double swing delay.

    To get your DW multiplier:
    DW1 - 0.9
    DW2 - 0.85
    DW3 - 0.75
    DW4 - 0.7
    Subtract 0.05 for each piece AF Body/Suppa/AF2 legs, meaning your DW multiplier can go as low as 0.55

    To get your TP you take your double swing Delay and divide it by two, and figure out the TP for that delay. This is your TP per hit. Notice that DW enhancement lowers your double swing delay, and will lower your TP. For almost every single realistic ninja DW setup, you will lose 0.1 TP per hit for each piece you put on.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Haste works in a similar manner, except you take your Double Swing delay, and multiply by (1 - haste%) Haste spell is 15%, with a Faerie Piccolo March1 and March2 are 9% and 11%.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    So which is faster?

    Setup 1 - AF Body, Suppa, no haste spells/songs/gear
    Koga = Added Katana delays x 0.55 x 1 = 0.55 x Added Katana delays
    Haidate = Added Katana delays x 0.6 x 0.95 = 0.57 x Added Katana delays

    Setup 2 - Not AF body, no Suppa, Haste spell/March2/15% haste from other slots
    Koga = Added Katana delays x 0.65 x 0.59 = 0.3835 x Added Katana delays
    Haidate = Added Katana delays x 0.7 x 0.54 = 0.378 x Added Katana delays

    Setup 3 - AF body, Suppa, Haste spell/March2/15% haste from other slots
    Koga = Added Katana delays x 0.55 x 0.59 = 0.3245 x Added Katana delays
    Haidate = Added Katana delays x 0.6 x 0.54 = 0.324 x Added Katana delays

    Setup 1 is DW heavy without any haste, and Koga is much faster. Setup 2 is Haste heavy without any DW, and Haidate is better. Setup 3 is a pure speed set using both DW and Haste, and Haidate is barely faster.

    Someone wrote:
    "For anyone with Suppa, I would say Byakko > Koga.
    No Suppa, Koga > Byakko."

    It's the exact opposite of that, both have increasing returns, and both are 5%. Therefore if you have more haste on you than DW then Haidate will have a larger result, and vice versa. Keep in mind that you start with a 30% DW enhancement at lvl 65+.

    Also remember:
    -Each piece of DW enhancement will lower your TP gain by 0.1 TP/hit. This may or may not lead to more swings required to hit 100 TP.
    -Haidate has the 15 DEX on it.
    __________________________________________________ ___________

  9. #9

    Quote Originally Posted by Damen
    My personal opinion of which is a better "DD peice" is that Koga > B.Haidate just based on the parsings I've done with my best in game friend. I always had 'better' gear but for some reason he always managed to parse a little better than me. Then he upgraded to B.haidate and swift belt (same as me) and I noticed his DoT fall just enough to be almost perfectly lined up with me. [i.e: within .75% of each other]
    Could it be that since you have better equipment, you're tanking more... recasting shadows more hence hitting less and therefore parsing less? These things are really subtle to judge, especially for NIN whom are usually asked to do the initial voke.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalendor
    Quote Originally Posted by Damen
    My personal opinion of which is a better "DD peice" is that Koga > B.Haidate just based on the parsings I've done with my best in game friend. I always had 'better' gear but for some reason he always managed to parse a little better than me. Then he upgraded to B.haidate and swift belt (same as me) and I noticed his DoT fall just enough to be almost perfectly lined up with me. [i.e: within .75% of each other]
    Could it be that since you have better equipment, you're tanking more... recasting shadows more hence hitting less and therefore parsing less? These things are really subtle to judge, especially for NIN whom are usually asked to do the initial voke.
    hmm, its possible, it wasn't a big enough of a difference that i was pulling that much more hate, and normally when we both exp we both voke it or alternate first voking.

    Again, you're going to be looking at a very subtle difference between the two pants, much like a senj/fudo v s/u or u/u. All I know is that he did just as much damage (sometimes more) using AF2 pants + life belt + ninja tekko+1 when I was using b.pants dusk gloves swift belt. Our gears are identical for TP now (also our merits), with a very small difference in WS gear. Yeah, its a very subtle thing, and I could be off, but just with my numerous parsings with this guy that's just something I noticed as his gear 'progressed' I didn't have work work as hard to match him on DoT. And now the difference is so small between the two of us, it really is kind of amazing.

    They're both really good DD pants regardless, and the difference is small at best. B.pants are definitely better though for tanking + DDing.

  11. #11
    Sea Torques
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    I'm going for a non-stop attacking build. I am currently using 20% haste + AF1 body + suppa. Would 15% haste + af1 + suppa + koga be superior to my current setup??

  12. #12
    Old Merits
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    Barbarossa's Zerehs are pretty good if you don't have Byakko's. Better than Koga Hakama. Unfortunately since they have about a 1% drop rate from Targeting the Captain, it might be easier to get Byakko's.

  13. #13
    Relic Weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chupunpupun
    I'm going for a non-stop attacking build. I am currently using 20% haste + AF1 body + suppa. Would 15% haste + af1 + suppa + koga be superior to my current setup??
    Does that 20% haste include Byakko's Haidate? Remember you have to subtract 5% haste if you're going with Koga. Whichever you have more of with naked legs is the choice that'll give you more.

    Assume:
    Code:
    15% equip(no haidate) + 15% spell = 30% haste
    30% DW IV + 5% Suppa              = 35% DW
    In this case you're better off from a swing speed perspective with the Koga.

    Add in a march however:
    Code:
    15% equip(no haidate) + 15% spell + 11% March = 41% haste
    30% DW IV + 5% Suppa                          = 35% DW
    Now Byakko's Haidate will make you swing faster.

    Add AF1 body:
    Code:
    15% equip(no haidate) + 15% spell + 11% March = 41% haste
    30% DW IV + 5% Suppa + 5% AF1                 = 40% DW
    Byakko's wins but just barely.

    If I didn't actually cover your case, hopefully you can do your own math.

  14. #14
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hakamaru
    Quote Originally Posted by Chupunpupun
    I'm going for a non-stop attacking build. I am currently using 20% haste + AF1 body + suppa. Would 15% haste + af1 + suppa + koga be superior to my current setup??
    Does that 20% haste include Byakko's Haidate? Remember you have to subtract 5% haste if you're going with Koga. Whichever you have more of with naked legs is the choice that'll give you more.

    Assume:
    Code:
    15% equip(no haidate) + 15% spell = 30% haste
    30% DW IV + 5% Suppa              = 35% DW
    In this case you're better off from a swing speed perspective with the Koga.

    Add in a march however:
    Code:
    15% equip(no haidate) + 15% spell + 11% March = 41% haste
    30% DW IV + 5% Suppa                          = 35% DW
    Now Byakko's Haidate will make you swing faster.

    Add AF1 body:
    Code:
    15% equip(no haidate) + 15% spell + 11% March = 41% haste
    30% DW IV + 5% Suppa + 5% AF1                 = 40% DW
    Byakko's wins but just barely.

    If I didn't actually cover your case, hopefully you can do your own math.
    20% haste with haidate.

    SO it's:

    20% haste + 10% dual wield (AF1 body, suppa)

    or

    15% haste + 15% dual wield (AF1 body, suppa, koga).

  15. #15
    Relic Weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chupunpupun
    20% haste with haidate.

    SO it's:

    20% haste + 10% dual wield (AF1 body, suppa)

    or

    15% haste + 15% dual wield (AF1 body, suppa, koga).
    Ok, that's this case:
    Code:
    15% equip(no haidate) + 15% spell = 30% haste
    30% DW IV + 5% Suppa + 5% AF1     = 40% DW
    With naked legs you have more Dual Wield delay reduction than haste delay reduction, so from a pure swing-speed perspective you're better off with the Koga.

    That being said, Byakko's Haidate dominates Koga with other considerations in every situation except HP and situational evasion. If your goal is to do more damage, the answer is always Byakko's Haidate.

  16. #16

    I have a (slightly) related question:

    Am I (from a pure damage output standpoint) better off using:

    AF body
    Life Belt
    Koga legs

    or

    Hauby
    Swift belt
    Koga legs

    Assuming swift belt is my only haste item (71, no fumas). I know AF/Swift/koga would be best but I dont feel comfortable losing the acc yet.

  17. #17

    Just use Haidate, end of story.

  18. #18
    Maldra
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    Koga Hakama for lolspiritswithin. Byakko Haidate for everything else

  19. #19
    E. Body
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    So say your a idiot like me and didn't get Suppa, will AF Body + Relic Legs kick you down a Swing like adding AF Body to Suppa and Relic Legs does?

  20. #20
    Relic Weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falaras
    So say your a idiot like me and didn't get Suppa, will AF Body + Relic Legs kick you down a Swing like adding AF Body to Suppa and Relic Legs does?
    You're gonna have to do your own work here. There's lots of variables like store TP and katana choice. I suspect it won't make a difference in many cases, but again, I'm not looking at your setup. Number of swings also varies with TP return from your last Jin. It's a huge headache and really not worth sweating over.

    If Koga legs is the best you have, then wear them. And if you're at a camp where ACC isn't an issue, put on the chainmail. It's not worth splitting hairs over swing counts.

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