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  1. #1

    Legal question

    So posted here back in November about house burning down out here in CA. We figured it was a faulty Amazon package.

    Our roomate was at home when it happened, he in a panic told the cops "I don't know, maybe it was a cigarette of mine" which is probably not the case but they ruled it was that and just left it as is.

    Just had doorbell ring and answered it, got served papers. Owners of that house using us for $700,000 for fault.

    They had home owners insurance that covered everything, not sure what the fuck this bullshit is about.

    Edit: Read more into it, it's USAA suing us apparently. Not sure if owners even know.


    Soooo anyone know a good lawyer in CA?

  2. #2
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    USAA is a shitty fucking company that I wish would go out of business, but probably wont cause people think they're good cuz MURICA.

    Nothing useful to add, sorry. Best of luck.

  3. #3

    Yeah so reading more into the paperwork this morning as I hunt around for lawyers.

    They are suing all 3 of us, yet cite one person as being the reason for the fire but saying that we're all liable because breach of lease...which makes 0 sense.

    They cite that the one who caused it threw a cig into a "container full of combustible material" which is 100% bullshit. When the cops arrived on the scene while the fire was still burning in the house, they questioned the one roommate who said "I don't know, maybe it was a cigarette of mine" and wrote it into their report that he had thrown a cig into a trash can or something. This came out back in November when the LL called me telling me the owners read that and were super upset. I immediately clarified with LL and fire investigator that 1) No trash cans were even on the porch or anywhere near porch 2) that's not what was said

    We have photos showing all the recycling/trash bins in driveway in the aftermath of the fire. Also we have dates and times showing the 911 call from a car on the highway, about 2-4 miles away from the house so it was that lit up, came in only 3mins after I had left the house. I had checked the porch for a package sitting there and saw no embers, smoke or anything so that's one hell of a fucking cigarette to engulf an entire garage in fire in 3mins with no catalyst of any kind.

  4. #4
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    asked a friend about it, as we're both in LA. she works as a PD but perhaps might have some good references or some meaningful info.

    will let you know!

  5. #5
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    Did you have renter's insurance?

  6. #6

    Quote Originally Posted by kisada View Post
    asked a friend about it, as we're both in LA. she works as a PD but perhaps might have some good references or some meaningful info.

    will let you know!
    Thanks appreciate it!

    Did you have renter's insurance?
    Nope. Fun ADHD brain! I was required to have it, went to set it up and got distracted and then it just fell by the wayside and the landlord never asked for proof before letting us move in (Obviously not on him for that, but it's also odd because every other LL i've had wanted proof before move in was allowed)

    It's clear they are trying to sue our renters insurance or something, not sure why it's directed at us. But yeah no renters insurance and I don't just have a million bucks laying around (lost it all on dogecoin )

  7. #7

    So extra fun fact, the police lied on their report. Stating my roommate had told them he tossed a cig in a trash can, saw a fire start, ran inside to help the animals and got caught out on the deck when the fire was burning like crazy....yet didn't come out with any animals.

    When in fact he told them "I have no idea what caused it, maybe it was a cig I had earlier"

    So now we need to find a lawyer who can help with the police fucking fabricating this entire thing

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    Were you there when he talked to them? Sounds like it will be his word against theirs (where theirs is his word at a different time)?

    Everything you have posted about this case has made me think that you are fucked. Even just reading your side of the story, I mostly believe that your roommate told them the truth and lied to you.

  9. #9

    I'd also be curious to know what you were expecting in said package for it to be the potential fire hazard. Something like a cell phone and its battery could certainly be a factor, though I find it unlikely a (new?) phone would ignite without being powered on. Further so in November months where I assume it isn't oppressively hot even if it is CA.

    I'd also assume the fire marshal did their investigation and presumably concluded the origin to be the porch where said package was. If they didn't do their due diligence and came to an inconclusive result or just took the cop/friend's word for it, especially with an "I don't know" attached, I'm not sure you've got some reasonable doubt going in your favor or not. I know siding burns, but I feel like it also shouldn't burn fast enough to get as bad as seemingly implied. If the package was in front of an outside door, I'd figure some combo of glass and metal, too. Maybe a screen. Insulation in the walls should also be fairly heat resistant, though not inflammable if it managed to exceed something like 370F. Which still seems odd from a small origin point without accelerants at play.

    What's the possibility of the owners intentionally starting the fire in hopes of a cash grab? Was the place in good shape? Had you been pestering them for repairs? Ever late with rent? Did they know the guy was a smoker and were angry about it? Heck, any string of arsons in the city at that time?

  10. #10

    the package had a chargeable razor with a lithium battery. It wasn't even the right product I had ordered, picture was wrong on it and the seller was one of those cheap Chinese knock off sellers that changes their name every 2 months. We found reviews for it that stated the battery would start to get very hot or was unusable after the fire and everything happened.

    I'd also assume the fire marshal did their investigation and presumably concluded the origin to be the porch where said package was.
    The county didn't do any fire investigation. Only the insurance company did. I called today and the county were like "Yup fire department didn't think it suspicious so we didn't go in to look". The fire report itself they won't modify even when roommate calls up to amend it.

    I mostly believe that your roommate told them the truth and lied to you.
    I would believe this if not for the type of person he is. Not saying he's a saint but we've questioned him and he's not the brightest person and far too trusting as well, so I don't think he told them that entire story because it doesn't match up with him waking up to fire alarms and the entire story he told us. He's just not there enough to comb up with this whole story (Not to mention we have video of him on the deck calling us and is clearly in a daze and not sure what to do).

    The USAA fire investigator found the lithium battery and took it from the scene but never made any comment on its state or that he was going to test it. Even if it didn't start the fire i'm sure it blew up while the fire was raging because there was a big ass hole in the deck where the fire had burned out and dropped parts of the deck down to the ground.

    I knew roommate was a smoker but also knew he was quitting smoking as well so at this time I had no idea if he was still actively smoking or not.

    I'm just trying and hoping to get this ruled as "accidental" and not blatant negligence like the report basically says now. I think a judge would be far more lenient and I could offer up just covering the 8months of rent that the insurance had to pay out due to the fire in lieu of $700,000.

    Since I work for the fed government i'm up shits creek when it comes to declaring bankruptcy because of my background check. So I basically lose my job and everything depending on the outcome of this entire thing. How the fuck it's a legit thing to be roped into someone else causing damage like this is beyond me. I can see the joint liability being meant and used for roommate ditching and not paying rent, or their room being marked up and needing to cost extra to clean or something but tossing almost a million dollar bill at random people seems insane.

    Were you there when he talked to them?
    No, they had just pulled him from the deck and he had smoke inhalation and was in shock and they questioned him about the cause. I can't get over the fucking "trash can" thing because there were no bins or anything on the deck besides an ashtray. We had 2-3 folded up cardboard boxes sitting on the deck waiting to be tossed in the recycling bin down in the driveway. The timeline just didn't add up because I looked at the fucking deck literally 5mins before the fire started and was engulfing the entire garage. The shit must have started while we were driving away from the house....

  11. #11

    Spoke to one lawyer today that at least made me feel better. He said he could probably get this thrown out just based on the fact that

    1) No way they would ever get this $$ from us so why waste time trying?
    2) There's no reason that I am actually liable even though the lease says "joint liability". It's not on me to govern someone else 24/7. If I knew he was always starting random fires and let it go on then yeah, there would be grounds
    3) There was no investigation done other then the insurance agency's which is super biased. The fire report is a major issue with a false report and beyond that further down it lists

    Area of origin = Unknown
    First item ignited = Unknown
    Type of material = unknown
    cause of ignition = unintentional
    heat source = cigarette
    factors contributing = Undetermined
    Human factors contributing = None

  12. #12

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    this thread stresses me out, hope there's a good resolution for you dude

  13. #13

    Quote Originally Posted by Roranora View Post
    this thread stresses me out, hope there's a good resolution for you dude
    What's crazy to me, and I could be misunderstanding this. But liability/renters insurance wouldn't have helped here really at all. I doubt my $5 a month payment to renters insurance covers something like this, coming to them with a $700,000 ask I think they'd just laugh at me lol. The liability insurance is just for someone else getting hurt, not for being liable for the house itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meresgi View Post
    What's crazy to me, and I could be misunderstanding this. But liability/renters insurance wouldn't have helped here really at all. I doubt my $5 a month payment to renters insurance covers something like this, coming to them with a $700,000 ask I think they'd just laugh at me lol. The liability insurance is just for someone else getting hurt, not for being liable for the house itself.
    Renters covers a decent amount, but yeah not a cool million.

    Mine is about ten a month for fire coverage and is for 100k in protection.

    Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

  15. #15

    So spoke to another lawyer today and basically said if they rep me, they're going to file an extension. Also the other 2people still have to be served within 60days or this all gets dismissed by default.

    The lawyer was like "I mean basic attempt is going to be 'yo these fuckers are poor as shit and own no assets.....so what are you planning to get?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meresgi View Post
    So spoke to another lawyer today and basically said if they rep me, they're going to file an extension. Also the other 2people still have to be served within 60days or this all gets dismissed by default.

    The lawyer was like "I mean basic attempt is going to be 'yo these fuckers are poor as shit and own no assets.....so what are you planning to get?"
    Honestly tell your friends to peace out for two months, or to not tell a soul what their names are for 60 days lol

    Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

  17. #17

    Yeah. I realize the requirements for settling in your favor are likely more complicated than a criminal trial, but overall I'm on your side based on info presented and the lack of due diligence by investigators. Shit was an accident brought on by an ebay scammer. That's who they should be chasing, if anyone.

    But for real, get your friends into hiding. If there's a legal loophole that'll absolve you, take it. A pittance to a lawyer compared to 700k from a scummy corp is worth it.

  18. #18
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    My name is None of Your God Damned Business

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  19. #19

    Quote Originally Posted by arus2001 View Post
    Yeah. I realize the requirements for settling in your favor are likely more complicated than a criminal trial, but overall I'm on your side based on info presented and the lack of due diligence by investigators. Shit was an accident brought on by an ebay scammer. That's who they should be chasing, if anyone.

    But for real, get your friends into hiding. If there's a legal loophole that'll absolve you, take it. A pittance to a lawyer compared to 700k from a scummy corp is worth it.
    Yeah i'm gonna hire on a lawyer just to file an extension for me and i told them to not fucking talk to anyone for 60 days. The one is Brazilian so I was like "if anyone comes up and asks your name, talk to them in Portuguese and pretend you don't understand them"

  20. #20

    Western Heritage Ins Co. v. Frances Todd Inc - lease only required liability insurance which did not cover fire: “Plaintiff and appellant Western Heritage Insurance Company (Western Heritage) appeals from a summary judgment entered in favor of defendants and respondents Frances Todd, Inc. dba The Wooden Duck, Eric Todd Gellerman and Amy Francis Ferber (collectively, "defendants"). ( Code Civ. Proc., 437c.) Western Heritage contends the trial court erred in concluding it was barred from bringing a subrogation claim for amounts it paid out under an insurance policy for fire damage. We affirm. Like the trial court, we conclude that defendants reasonably expected their landlord, an insured under the policy, to procure fire insurance. Because Western Heritage was barred from suing its own insured for negligently causing a fire, and because the defendants were implied insureds under the policy, Western Heritage could not sue them in subrogation, even if we assume defendants were negligent.” https://casetext.com/case/w-heritage...ances-todd-inc

    California prohibits a subrogation action by the fire insurance company of a lessor against a lessee where a lessee’s negligence causes a fire, but the policy is intended to benefit the lessee. In such cases, the lessee is treated as an insured, despite the lessee not being a named insured on the policy. Because the insurance company could not seek subrogation against its own named insured (the lessor), it cannot seek subrogation against the lessee. Western Heritage Ins. Co. v. Frances Todd, Inc., 2019 WL 1011104 (Cal. App. 2019). This comes into play via the doctrine of superior equities, which prevents an insurer from recovering against a party whose equities are equal or superior to those of the insurer. State Farm Gen. Ins. Co. v. Wells Fargo Bank, N.A., 49 Cal. Rptr.3d 785 (Cal. App. 2006). https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/u...9637x9EBBF.pdf

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