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  1. #1
    Kaeko
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    Innin and Yonin Enmity Values

    Tested with a friend tonight. I wasn't able to completely flush out the mechanics of this yet (you'll see why). For the sake of 99% of the readers that just want the conclusions, I'm just going to post results first, then a separate section with the math / methodology for the few that don't mind checking for me.

    Rule of thumb - you can get by just reading the bold/red text.

    For reference:

    Yonin = + enmity
    Innin = - enmity

    Both JAs share the same timer. They wear off after 5 minutes, which is also the recast timer of their use.

    ****************************

    Results

    CE and VE values generated by the act of using the JA itself:

    Yonin = 1 CE | 600 VE
    Innin = 1 CE | 80 VE

    * The amount of +/- enmity granted from Yonin/Innin is additive with your gear and merits. For example, if Yonin gives you +20 enmity, you have +4 from merits and +10 from gear, your total is basically +34.

    * The amount of +/- enmity granted from Yonin/Innin changes over time.

    * I estimate (I stress, estimate!) that Yonin starts at +30 and eventually wears at +10 after 5 minutes. Innin around -20 at start. Currently not enough good data to suggest an amount near the end.


    At this point, you can stop reading the parts that are not bolded if you just want the conclusions/

    ****************************

    Methodology

    RDM/BRD (0 enmity merit) and NIN/RDM (+2 merit)

    NIN opens with Slow pull (205 CE)
    RDM cures NIN 5 times, then songs both players 5 times (205 CE) - even CE.
    RDM cures himself twice (+2 over NIN)
    NIN uses JA, looking at recast timer for number of seconds to switch back.
    NIN uses cure once to verify the 1 CE from the JA (successful)

    Recast timer showed roughly 9-10 seconds to switch target back. I rounded this to an estimated 600 VE (60VE/sec*10sec).

    ***************

    For the enmity change effect, we used the same mob, even out CE before beginning. I'll start with Yonin

    (RDM 0 | NIN 0) : Start even CE (balanced to 0)
    (RDM 1 | NIN 0) : RDM uses cure on himself once for 0 HP.
    (RDM 1 | NIN 1) : NIN uses Yonin.

    ------- wait X amount of time before continuing, hate rebalanced -------

    (RDM 0 | NIN X) : NIN uses Dispel.

    At this point, RDM uses a combo of BRD songs and cures to regain hate. Here are the results for 3 trials at separate time. Timestamp was used to determine time between the usage of the NIN JA and the time of the Dispel.

    Trial I:
    NIN enmity = +2
    Time from JA use to Dispel = 87 seconds
    CE generated from Dispel = 403 CE

    At this point, I did not know if the enmity enhancement of Yonin was added to gear/merits (like Dirge) or multiplied (like SCH equanimity). This test suggested to me it was additive based on this math:

    403/320 = 1.2594 | 404/320 = 1.2635 (upper bound based on truncation rounding)

    Any value that falls between 1.2594 and 1.2635 is valid. Obviously 1.26 is the most friendly number for addition (can only result in whole numbers). If we try the multiplication, then for some value X,

    1.2594 < (100+X)/100*1.02 < 1.2635 , where X must be a whole number.

    No whole number meets this criteria (closest are 23 and 24, but both fall out of range). Hence at this point, I feel it is safe to assume that the JAs are additive with merits and gear.

    Thus, the result of this trial showed a +26 enmity enhancement in total. Subtracting out the +2 from merits, we reach the conclusion that...

    After 87 seconds since Yonin use, the enmity enhancement is +24.

    Trial II:
    NIN enmity = +10
    Time from JA use to Dispel = 39 seconds
    CE generated from Dispel = 438 CE

    I had my friend (NIN) now add some enmity gear to reach +10 from gear and merits. We then repeated using a different timing after JA usage (only 39 seconds this time). The 438 CE result results in this enmity enhancement range:

    438/320 = 1.3688 | 439/320 = 1.3719

    We find that 1.37 fits within the range, so at this point I assume the total enhancement is +37. Subtracting out the +10 from gear/merits...

    After 39 seconds since Yonin use, the enmity enhancement is +27.

    Trial III:
    NIN enmity = +10
    Time from JA use to Dispel = 275 seconds
    CE generated from Dispel = 387 CE

    Same thing but we waited 275 seconds (the effect wears at 300 seconds). We find that...

    387/320 = 1.2094 | 388/320 = 1.2125

    Again, a good number appears in range at 1.21, or +21 enmity total. Subtract out the +10 from gear and merits...

    After 275 seconds since Yonin use, the enmity enhancement is +11.

    ***************

    Test for Innin is almost the same so I'll skip the methodology and go to results.

    Trial IV:
    NIN enmity = +2 (Using Innin)
    Time from JA use to Dispel = 43 seconds
    CE generated from Dispel = 265 CE

    We run the same sort of calculation to find the range...

    265/320 = 0.8281 | 266/320 = 0.8313

    A good number appears at 0.83 or -17 enmity. If we consider the fact we had +2 from merits,

    After 43 seconds since Innin use, the enmity enhancement is -19.

    Unfortunately I wasn't able to run more tests at this point. I'll try more in the near future.

    ****************************

    Questions Still Unanswered

    (1) How do these JAs work with the +/- enmity caps? This may be a hard question to answer since I don't believe it is possible for a NIN to reach +100 enmity even with Yonin (without resorting to Sentinel, which is unique anyways). The - enmity cap would similarly be a bit hard to get the gear for, in addition to probably not being all that relevant to the actual game setting.

    (2) How exactly does the enhancement (+/-) depreciate over time? Every X number of seconds perhaps?

    (3) What are the lower and upper bounds of the enhancements? Specifically right after you use the JA and right before it wears? Right now I estimate Yonin at +30 to +10 and Innin at -20 to UNKNOWN.

    http://kanican.livejournal.com/19569.html

    Enmity Table was updated to reflect the basic CE/VE of using the JAs, but I'm still holding off on their descriptions of the enmity enhancements until I flush it out completely and have it verified here.

  2. #2
    E. Body
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    Do you plan on testing out the Acc- of Yonin? I used it tonight for Limbus tanking and I didn't notice any large drop in Acc so it must not be too extreme.

  3. #3
    Kaeko
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arximiro View Post
    Do you plan on testing out the Acc- of Yonin? I used it tonight for Limbus tanking and I didn't notice any large drop in Acc so it must not be too extreme.
    I'm more the 'enmity guy' on BG. There are far more qualified members here to do the other parts of the JA effect. I believe a simple /check con test on a mob could tell you this though.

  4. #4
    assburgers
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    I can check it later, been campaign spamming to rank up for my toys.

  5. #5
    Bagel
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    Thanks for the tests!

  6. #6
    Puppetmaster
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    I'm not sure how useful this will be over all. But we had a nin dual tank 2 Tinnans last night using Yonin (2nd tank was a pld). Normally we dual tank it with 2 plds for safety sake, but we wanted to test out the new JA.

    Long story short, normally us blms have to hold back some. Not nuking as much as we want to and such. If we were to pop 2-3 AMII in a row even with 2 plds and sam/thf spamming TA ws's on them, we would get drawn in and well, either hit hard or killed. However with our nin tanking last night. We were able to go all out. We only had 2 blms last night and because we never took hate, We were able to kill it faster than times we have had 4-6 blms. We nuked till out of MP every time with only maybe 5-10 seconds between every new cast. I did die once on the 2nd Tinnan due to the NIN getting KOed right before I landed a Burst II for 1563dmg. But other than that one death it was smooth hate on tanks entire time.

  7. #7
    PUP Power!
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    So does this ability help level the playing field for NINs now on HNMs and such? Is the evasion bonus helpful?

  8. #8
    Puppetmaster
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    I would think so. I'll try to get him to post on here for his opinion since he was the one actually tanking. I was just happy to be able to spam nukes and enjoy being a blm, instead of trying to play it safe and hold back.

  9. #9
    E. Body
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utile View Post
    I would think so. I'll try to get him to post on here for his opinion since he was the one actually tanking. I was just happy to be able to spam nukes and enjoy being a blm, instead of trying to play it safe and hold back.
    as richardd has pointed out before, when properly doing nin tanking, DD, whether they are BLM, RNGs or SAMs, have more freedom to go all out. Like many have said before, the issue with tanking with nin isn't that we can't generate and maintain a deep hate line, its that if the NIN lags or gets sloppy, or one of the tank supports is slow, it means trouble if you're not prepped.

    I for one like this /JA. was testing it during a Temenos farming run, and the 2 melee (SAM and DRK) were rarely able to snatch hate while i had the JA up, even after a few WS spams (was TP/WS gear, not tanking gear). Acc down was easily countered by sushi.

  10. #10

    Thank you for the time invested in testing this for us.
    Hope it is ok to ask this newbie question but is "CE" Cumulative Enmity ? Checking bg wiki to see also.

    Edit: Answered my own question, BG Wiki to the rescue! (posted for anyone who might wonder so I am not just wasting a post) :
    Enmity
    Each spell and ability used by a player generates an amount of enmity, which comes in two forms, Cumulative Enmity (CE) and Volatile Enmity (VE). The two forms are added together to determine the player’s Total Enmity(TE). An enemy’s target will be the player with the highest current TE.

  11. #11
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    Don't get me wrong, I knew nins could tank and keep strong hate well before this. I was just trying to point out that for the first time in a long time, as a blm, I didn't have to hold back. Our main nin tank has tanked many mobs for use before and always kept very nice hate. But an overconfident blm could still pull hate now and then and get killed. With this JA up, I was purposely trying to pull hate. I was unable to the entire first battle and only took hate on the 2nd fight after our nin died. IMO, this is truely the powerhouse hate tool nins have been dreaming for. Honestly...its about GD time SE.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toth View Post
    So does this ability help level the playing field for NINs now on HNMs and such? Is the evasion bonus helpful?
    The bonuses on Yonin are noticeable. I think eva tanking will become far easier with Yonin (if the other bonuses give us a relative idea, I'd be surprised if the evasion wasn't over 20 or 30....).

    I found it allowed me to a lot more wiggleroom tbh. The enmity bonus is potent enough that I don't have to play *perfectly* in order to maintain that hate line (but if I do it's unbreakable) and keep shadows up.

    I think nins with HQ gear could push 60-85ish enmity with Yonin up.

  13. #13
    E. Body
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    honestly, i love nin tanking, but i really don't think it will change things all that much. the top linkshells on each server will continue to go with PLD main tanks, because it is friendlier with support and more laid back, and most other shells will continue to follow suit.

  14. #14
    That SpellCast Guy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tulun View Post
    I think nins with HQ gear could push 60-85ish enmity with Yonin up.
    Well, just looking at my own enmity NIN gear (which I never use, I don't know why I own this stuff):

    Hades Sainti: +7
    Nokizaru Shuriken: +2
    Harmonia's Torque: +3
    2x Eris' Earring +1: +6
    Arhat's Gi +1: +4
    Mermaid's Ring: +2
    Cerberus Mantle: +3

    That's 27 from gear, so 57 at the start of Yonin. That's also without replacing any Haste pieces with Enmity, you could easily get above 60 if you have enough Haste from spell/song/gear to be able to replace some haste pieces with more enmity.

  15. #15
    /lick
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arximiro View Post
    Do you plan on testing out the Acc- of Yonin? I used it tonight for Limbus tanking and I didn't notice any large drop in Acc so it must not be too extreme.
    I already tested this for Yonin.

    It starts at -30 Acc upon initial use.

    At exactly 3.5 minutes after activation, it has reduced to -15.

    When the ability expires, it's more than -5. I suspect 10 based on +Enmity decay.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deimos View Post
    Well, just looking at my own enmity NIN gear (which I never use, I don't know why I own this stuff):

    Hades Sainti: +7
    Nokizaru Shuriken: +2
    Harmonia's Torque: +3
    2x Eris' Earring +1: +6
    Arhat's Gi +1: +4
    Mermaid's Ring: +2
    Cerberus Mantle: +3

    That's 27 from gear, so 57 at the start of Yonin. That's also without replacing any Haste pieces with Enmity, you could easily get above 60 if you have enough Haste from spell/song/gear to be able to replace some haste pieces with more enmity.
    Assuming you went all out on enmity (which probably isn't a good idea)...

    Hades+1 = 9, Noki = 2, Arhat's Jin+1 = 2 (if there is better forgive me..), harmonia / einherjar neck = 3, Eris+1x2 = 6, Arhat body+1 = 4, Yasha tekko+1 = 3, Sat = 3, Merman's = 2, HQ cerb = 4, trance belt = 4, yasha legs = +3, usu feet = +5, dorado = +3 = 53 enmity.

    +10-30 for Yonin.

    In theory you could have the above and have 37% haste... minimal sacrifices to get it higher really (Head + Legs...) so a more realistic look is like 47% haste and 58-78 enmity.

  17. #17
    Kaeko
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    Regarding the Tinnin thing, are your PLDs normally DDing and using Atonement spam during the Tinnin fights?

    The difference between DDs "holding back" vs. "going all out" almost always has to do with the tank's ability to maintain CE. PLDs prior to the Nyzul WS patch had an issue with CE gain; today they can cap quite easily and quickly, but only if they DD and spam Atonement (actually dealing damage is a very strong source of CE). A NIN/DRK (or /RDM) or RDM/NIN innately has very strong CE gaining spells like Sleep or Dispel, hence they generally don't have issues with CE gain unless they are just taking a ton of damage. The times when your DD can go "all out" generally refers to the situation where a tank reaches the "TE cap" aka the true hate cap - 10,000 CE, and constantly recapping VE at 10,000.

    Regarding the strength of Yonin and its effects on NIN/DRK (or /RDM) tanking, I would say it's certainly a strong effect. Besides a free 600 VE every 5 minutes (not amazing but it's something), adding + enmity lets you cap VE faster and allows you to maintain the CE cap while taking more damage. Considering tanks spend ridiculous effort for minor stat increases, it's hard to say +10 to +30 enmity at all times isn't significant.

    My overall view of the 3 main tanks is still about the same though. I still believe PLD to be the strongest tank when facing the most difficult mobs (e.g. AV). This has nothing to do with hate gain though - just the fact that PLD has more "oh shit" moment JAs like Sentinel. It also always gets the best, most broken gear from SE. And Atonement.

    My personal sentimental favorite is still NIN/DRK though - it utterly rapes anything in the CoP era because SE didn't wise up to the fact stun is overpowered until ToAU (started giving stun resist or building resist). 2 NIN/DRKs can stun lock an NM for a good portion of the fight. I still like to use the example of our 7 man Ultima 3 years ago which involved a single NIN/DRK tank - stun lasts like 4 seconds on it with no dark skill.

  18. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaeko View Post
    Regarding the Tinnin thing, are your PLDs normally DDing and using Atonement spam during the Tinnin fights?
    Pretty sure i've heard PLDs in ls say atonement doesn't seem to work on tinnin.

  19. #19
    Bagel
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    Slightly going away from the enmity values here...but did anyone test the ACC & Crit bonus gained from Innin yet? I might have missed it.

  20. #20
    Kaeko
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaelWanderling View Post
    Pretty sure i've heard PLDs in ls say atonement doesn't seem to work on tinnin.
    In that case that may explain why a mixed NIN PLD combo gave better results. If a PLD cannot do reasonable DD, it will take him longer to cap CE (you'll likely kill it before he caps considering Tinnin does a fair bit of damage).

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