WAR/SAM top of the merit job heap?

[Ryda]

I had prided myself on having never been out parsed on my MNK/NIN...until last night. I was spanked by a WAR/SAM.

Here is my parse against a very well equiped WAR/NIN using e.body Ridill, all the top gear, im pretty sure he had a speed belt at this time, no dusk+1 or Unicorn+1 though. The other person is a SAM/WAR. The WAR used sushi, the SAM for some reason used sushi too. I use red curry. 40% me, 37% WAR/NIN. While this is over only 62 mobs, we did about 300, and the other parse was identical in terms of %'s. Sorry i can't provide the other parse. We were using one mardrigal for a long time and the WAR felt it was an advantage to me because he used sushi vs my meat, we changed to min min march march and I reset the parser, the results were ultimately the same.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...ucket/WAR2.jpg


This is my gear, pretty easy to tell what everything is. Tiphia sting didn't appear for some reason.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...ket/mygear.jpg

Now, last night I played with a WAR/SAM...Dusk+1, Unicorn+1, speed belt, blitz ring, E.body capped 25% haste, march march min min per usual at south mamool. This person could have improved their play and their WS average was low. I was told by the WAR in the previous parse that this person was new to war/sam and wasnt maximizing its potential but not have a seperate WS macro for when aggressor was up or down. Also, they were using Byakko's Axe, didnt have perdu I guess.

Here is the parse:

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...bucket/WAR.jpg

Im nearly 4% behind, and while my playing suffered a *bit* because I was talking a lot about my disbelief at what was happening, for the most part i was playing my heart out. She was using carbonarra+1 for a 6 hit build.

I think I was playing closer to my character potential and she was to hers. I'm pretty certain that even with 5/5 usu, giving me 3% more haste, I think 7 less attack, 5 more acc and +5 STR -5 DEX than I have now might improve my damage output by as much as 6-7% in the context of double march and haste song, I think the optimal non-relic WAR/SAM may be unbeatable.

Is this generally known? That WAR/SAM is, as far as i can imagine, the strongest merit job (other than BRD)?

It shocked my little britches, thats for sure.

Edit: looking over the parse I see it did not count counter %. Would this mean the damage was not included? I had just done Zhaylom frogs and might have turned on a filter for it, or i also just download the new parser files, maybe i didnt have the settings right. Also, do these parsers count kicks? I still think even with this stuff counted WAR/SAM can be stronger than 5/5 usu mnk

[Seditedi]

You mixed up the parses.. @_@
edit: nvm you fixed em as I was posting.
The Ridill WAR only 89.94% acc with Sushi? wtf lol.
Both of the Ridill WARs I frequently exped with parsed higher acc or about the same with Meat..
No madrigal either.

[Ryda]

You mixed up the parses.. @_@
edit: nvm you fixed em as I was posting.
The Ridill WAR only 89.94% acc with Sushi? wtf lol.
Both of the Ridill WARs I frequently exped with parsed higher acc or about the same with Meat..
No madrigal either.

This is south mamool, no one breaks 90% there because of flash mostly, also occasional slow dispel on wind wall or NIN mobs shadows. The fully merited max skill SAM used sushi, god knows why, and still didn't do better than 90%.

[isladar]

I'm trying to figure this out myself. Carbonara +1 for 6-hit? So, clearly, not wearing Rajas + Chiv chain. Though clearly superior gear for WAR in all other available slots. I'm going to have to light up the Rkenshin signal on this one.

[Seditedi]

Oh, I must be mixing up camps.

[Ryda]

I'm trying to figure this out myself. Carbonara +1 for 6-hit? So, clearly, not wearing Rajas + Chiv chain. Though clearly superior gear for WAR in all other available slots. I'm going to have to light up the Rkenshin signal on this one.

I wish i had just screenshoted the gear. Im not sure what the non blitz ring was, or neck, sorry. But yeah, if i understand right 6hit is 7 store tp, 1 on brutal so she would be covered without anything else. I'm thinking it was the Gaxe toruqe on neck.

[Seditedi]

I'm thinking your counter damage wasn't counted in the parse most likely.
Haven't used that parser in over 4 months
Is there a way to calculate the additional damage from counter?

You definitely would've parsed lower simply due to lack of counter damage in the parse.

I'd honestly scrap this last parse as it may be inaccurate.

[Neosutra]

Try it again with you sub /war and you will see closer parses.

[Seditedi]

yea MNK/WAR isn't too bad with Counterstance, only thing that will hurt you are TP moves.

[Ryda]

Try it again with you sub /war and you will see closer parses.

I don't know, even with counter merits and relic feet to maximize my counter rate I would be scared D: Especially using red curry. I feel like if I can't win /NIN I'm not legitimately winning. A WAR/SAM is a lot less of an mp sink than MNK/WAR I would think. One fang rush and I could easily be toast.

I'm hoping someone adds some perspective on WAR/SAMs potential. I feel like I know my own pretty well, but WAR/SAM is a mystery to me now.

[Therin]

Honestly with the gear that WAR had, I'm actually more surprised that the parse was as close as it was. I suppose I wasn't giving MNK as much credit as it deserved (I've outparsed my share of BB MNKs with no sweat at all on DRK, although this was before Usukane, so this is why I'm surprised). Great job. :D

WAR/SAM is a beast, yes. I wouldn't say it's the most potent DD in merit. I would imagine an Amano SAM or Apoc DRK (or possibly a very well-geared DRG/SAM if you're on Colibri) holds that title. I'd put WAR/SAM in third place, though, even without relic.

Would be very interested in seeing this WAR/SAM go against a very well-geared non-relic scythe DRK, like with Tred, E.Body, full haste set and a 6-hit build.

[RKenshin]

I was saying stuff along these lines in the relic thread on one of the many little side-branch topics it has broken off into. At one point people were saying/implying Bravura WAR was kind of meh/worthless and nothing too special, but I completely disagree. I think you could still find it around page 180 or so, if you wanted to see some number crunching or whatever I discussed (forgot).

But, just to repeat some of what I remember I said there, I really think that WAR/SAM is easily one of the best DDs (not count relic). And I'm not shocked at entertaining the thought that they could potentially have the highest damage output for your typical merit PT situation (again, not counting relic jobs!). However I don't so much agree with the idea of labeling any job or any combination to be 'the best of the best for DDs', relic or not, just because I honestly don't believe any job is or ever really will be... At least without getting nerfed almost right away. Shit is situational, as are a certain job's abilities/traits/general use, and in large part parses and the math on paper will never be 100% accurate.

That stuff aside, yeah I think WAR/SAM really brings a lot to the table that people underestimate or don't realize. With perfect gear you're looking at a job wielding some of the highest base damage weapons in the game, with one of the strongest multi-hit weapon skills, with enough STR/attack to come closer to the fSTR cap than most can, along with a potential 25% in haste equipment + hasso, 20% or higher DA-rate, an obtainable 6-hit build, and a rather easy time hitting/coming close to the acc cap. It's one of the only job that can do/obtain most of those numbers as well.

I kinda wish I could use my WAR more, but to be honest as of late it is probably my least used job .

[Ryda]

Honestly with the gear that WAR had, I'm actually more surprised that the parse was as close as it was. I suppose I wasn't giving MNK as much credit as it deserved (I've outparsed my share of BB MNKs with no sweat at all on DRK, although this was before Usukane, so this is why I'm surprised). Great job. :D

WAR/SAM is a beast, yes. I wouldn't say it's the most potent DD in merit. I would imagine an Amano SAM or Apoc DRK (or possibly a very well-geared DRG/SAM if you're on Colibri) holds that title. I'd put WAR/SAM in third place, though, even without relic.

Would be very interested in seeing this WAR/SAM go against a very well-geared non-relic scythe DRK, like with Tred, E.Body, full haste set and a 6-hit build.

I did parse with a well respected DRK who has speed belt, homam and dusk and such and I'm pretty sure was 6 hit . No e-body though, hauby+1. He used perdu sickle. This is that parse:
The other guy was WAR/NIN with ebody and ridill, I wasnt paying attention to him once i saw him losing, so I dont know what his malfunction was, but other people have told me he doesn't know what he is doing, so there you go kids, you can have e.body and ridill and still parse poorly.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/e...bucket/DRK.jpg

I remember now that varg was on COR, this war a BRD COR pt, with march march chaos roll and the other roll was double attack.

In any case, I think that represents MNK/NIN with usu and curry vs a very strong drk/sam. Unfortunatly I cant say what he ate, but with his acc at 80 its was surely meat, i believe one of the 90+ attack sort.

Edit: yeah looking at his number of WS vs hit melee hits it had to be 6hit.

[RKenshin]

DRK is actually harder to parse against IMO, because I think more people are prone to loose a lot of damage doing things that most believe a DRK should do.

This basically being, using any dark magic at all. Which the DRK in that PT obviously did. While Drain and Drain II will help your survivability, and by no means am I saying you shouldn't use them (if anything, you should), but if you're pumping out every last bit of damage you're better off not casting it... Contrary to what most believe. This also even includes using Absorb-TP, sadly. I hate to think of not using it, but it's just how it is.

In a typical PT like above with large amounts of haste, you really are losing quit a lot of damage. Especially if you're keeping Hasso/Seigan on, which will double the casting time. Without the doubled casting time, you're basically immobile for the 3 seconds of casting time + about 1-2 seconds of delay after a spell. In that 4-5 seconds, you're losing the damage and TP gained from about 2 connected hits. With a melee average of 170, that's about 340 damage you're losing assuming the hits land and there is no critical/DA/TA/etc.

However what really hurts it is if you disperse the WS damage into the hits it takes to get to WS TP, it's even more. By this I mean say you average 200 damage on hits and 1000 on WS, and it takes you 5 hits to get to a WS. Then, essentially, each connected hit is worth 200+200 damage. With this in mind, those 2 hits are now worth 540 damage (assuming a 1k WS average). 540 damage is more than any bonus you'll average from casting a single Drain, Drain II, or Absorb TP. If you keep Hasso/Seigan on for casting, this is basically doubled to potential 1,080 damage.

Most DRKs don't realize this, and loose a lot of damage on their parse because of it over a long high-haste PT. However, it's important to note three things on this topic:

1. I am in no way not saying dark magic shouldn't be used. Personally I've invested a lot into my dark magic skill and will never change or regret it, including merits and quite a few mil for just about the most I can get. I'm almost always using it, and it is incredibly helpful.

2. The difference in damage lost shrinks dramatically at lower levels of haste. For your average situation the difference isn't anywhere near as significant.

3. Likewise, at higher values of haste (like, with Apoc), the difference is bigger.


EDIT: Mistake on initial math numbers, fixed.

[RKenshin]

Another thing, I'd normally edit this into my last post rather than make a second so soon but I don't want this to be overlooked.

I completely forgot to mention this, but my last post reminded me of it.

Through a shitload of parsing Lhexh and I basically decided that as a heavy DD tanking with Utsesumi, the amount of casting time results in about a 2-4% relative penalty off of your parse (primarily if not exclusively using Ni, and assuming you're not in a slow PT as the only good DD). Your MNK casting shadows is at about a 2-4% disadvantage versus the WAR because he doesn't have to constantly cast shadows, while you do. It's one important thing to note that I think a lot of people also forget.

If you went through the entire PT without casting a single shadow, the results would be quite a bit closer. Albeit, you might as well sub WAR if you do that!

[Ryda]

Another thing, I'd normally edit this into my last post rather than make a second so soon but I don't want this to be overlooked.

I completely forgot to mention this, but my last post reminded me of it.

Through a shitload of parsing Lhexh and I basically decided that as a heavy DD tanking with Utsesumi, the amount of casting time results in about a 2-4% relative penalty off of your parse (primarily if not exclusively using Ni, and assuming you're not in a slow PT as the only good DD). Your MNK casting shadows is at about a 2-4% disadvantage versus the WAR because he doesn't have to constantly cast shadows, while you do. It's one important thing to note that I think a lot of people also forget.

If you went through the entire PT without casting a single shadow, the results would be quite a bit closer. Albeit, you might as well sub WAR if you do that!

I was going to post something to this effect, im glad you did first becuase I dont have numbers to back anything up. I will say that I do my very best to avoid Ichi and I try and do everything productive I can during times I am flashed. Ill put up my CS, dodge and use chakra during flash, which considering half the puks get it off isnt long to wait to use those things. Other than that I'll try to cast between mobs since a good portion of the time the next mob isnt fixed in one place yet and me using that time to cast isnt a complete waste since after I'm done i know exactly where I need to run.

[Wizerd]

Personally, I don't think it's fair to compare 1-hander job (MNK, NIN, THF, Axe WAR, etc) to a 2-hander job simply because for the latter, Minuet x2 / March x2 are your optimal songs, and for the former, Minuet/Madrigal/March x2 seem to be optimal songs (provided your hit-rate on MNK is lower than what, ~85%?).

However, I never liked the Mamool Ja for parsing on either, I prefer birds because the mobs are much more consistent. Someone who is specifically trying to shine on parses will strategically place their weapon skills on as many puks/pets as they can, and avoid using TP on Mamool Ja unless it's either going to break chain or there are a few lined up and saving TP would be useless. If your WAR/SAM, for example, was saving Meditates for Puks and double WSing on those instead of Mamool Ja, then that could be a clear advantage.

Colibri, on the other hand, are all the same monster, in a decently small level range, and are very predictable. Unless the area's relatively full, even the best party can take only Colibri if camping on the middle and pulling from bottom. Obviously both camps have the disadvantage for non-piercing jobs, but I never really counted DRGs anyway in my parses on these.

[Ryda]

Personally, I don't think it's fair to compare 1-hander job (MNK, NIN, THF, Axe WAR, etc) to a 2-hander job simply because for the latter, Minuet x2 / March x2 are your optimal songs, and for the former, Minuet/Madrigal/March x2 seem to be optimal songs (provided your hit-rate on MNK is lower than what, ~85%?).

Well, i don't think that applies in my case here, though in general a good point. I mean, if you look at my acc vs the WAR/SAM its 3% difference, a gap that will even break in my favor with usu hands. My gear and her gear are far from the norm i realize.

I freaking hate birds.

[Wizerd]

Personally, I don't think it's fair to compare 1-hander job (MNK, NIN, THF, Axe WAR, etc) to a 2-hander job simply because for the latter, Minuet x2 / March x2 are your optimal songs, and for the former, Minuet/Madrigal/March x2 seem to be optimal songs (provided your hit-rate on MNK is lower than what, ~85%?).

Well, i don't think that applies in my case here, though in general a good point. I mean, if you look at my acc vs the WAR/SAM its 3% difference, a gap that will even break in my favor with usu hands. My gear and her gear are far from the norm i realize.

I freaking hate birds.

I believe I have 4? less accuracy than you, and I'd still prefer a Madrigal over a Minuet. I would think the WAR should have had better accuracy than that though. <_<

[RKenshin]

I disagree with the saving WS for weaker mobs thing, that would much more likely result in less damage over a PT. Not more.

Saving TP is almost never worth it outside of being flashed or there being wind wall up. Your WS averages on Puks, Mamool, and Skoffins really aren't as different as it may seem, and you can see this if you use the edit function of Taz's FF Parser. Wasted TP hurts more than the difference is.