Final Fantasy XIV Free Trial Period (Extended [again...])

[Elcura]

The belief was that things could change, not that they necessarily would.

[Lucavi]

That's complete bullshit. At the time, we knew the beta build that we were playing was a beta build. We had a small army of posters here saying that "LOL, spoiled kids these days think betas are just demos by a different name!" and "This is just the beta build, SE has the retail build they're holding back for release" and "It's going to have so much more content at release, we don't need to test all of the quests just the framework of the questing system!". And then, only after the game was released, we learned that the beta was a demo, that the beta build was the retail build and that there wasn't any additional content.

Eh, you could smell the writing on the wall. Nobody but the holiest of SE-lovers actually believed SE when they said there would be "significant changes" between OB and retail. Those holy-rollers thumbed their noses at everyone else, though. It was kind of funny.

[aru]

Eh, you could smell the writing on the wall. Nobody but the holiest of SE-lovers actually believed SE when they said there would be "significant changes" between OB and retail. Those holy-rollers thumbed their noses at everyone else, though. It was kind of funny.

Not going to argue that you couldn't smelling the writing on the wall, but to outright say that everyone should have a crystal ball or a spy in SE headquarters to have been able to know what retail was going to be like purely from what we saw in beta is trolling. There were hardly and changes after the alpha combat change, to think that they were just sitting on their hands or just fixing some bugs is silly. Unless you honestly believe that the only change from OB to retail that SE was going to do was a hardware mouse.

[aru]

If you played the beta, you would know the game was unfinished but still being released in such a state.

to

The belief was that things could change, not that they necessarily would.

So did we "know" or did we "believe"? Or are we just trying to safeface at this point?

[Elcura]

Trolling? I'm pretty sure you don't know what trolling is if you think I'm doing it.

to think that they were just sitting on their hands or just fixing some bugs is silly.

This is exactly what they were doing. Which was also pretty clear from playing beta.

And no, that wasn't my stance changing, it's just how those conversations went if you paid attention. And a crystal ball or spy weren't needed, just some cynicism. For the record, I believed things would change down the line after retail, but not going from OB > retail.

But don't mind me, I'm just a simple troll.

[Katlan]

The belief was that things could change, not that they necessarily would.

I think the belief was that we were playing a beta build and we all hoped that the retail client was further ahead of what we were playing. While a lot may say that belief / theory was bs... coming from a company that held a lot of secrets about their previous mmo (FFXI), it was a reasonable assumption that the retail client would be different in order for SE to keep a lot of things secretive.

[Hyan]

It was indeed reasonable, up until OB.

Although if I had known we basically had the OB build stored on our PC's all that time it should have already been clear at that point.

[aru]

Trolling? I'm pretty sure you don't know what trolling is if you think I'm doing it.

Anybody who thinks other people should have the ability to either see into the future or see into SE's HQ is trolling. We didn't know then what they had planned, just like Katlan said SE is very tight-lipped. There was absolutely no way to know what was going to be changed between beta and retail.

This is exactly what they were doing. Which was also pretty clear from playing beta.

How was it clear? If they were holding back content and features for release, how could you tell from playing beta that they were holding back content and features? STFU
Were there indications? Sure, but don't play yourself like "oh yea, I knew all along, without a doubt." because you, just like everyone else, had hardly anything to base that assumption on.

Your statements make no sense whatsoever unless you 1. Had a crystal ball, 2. Had a spy at SE, 3. Are just trolling to prop yourself up to seem smarter than those around you, 4. Are the real life version that South Park's Capt. Hindsight was based on- in which case stop wasting your time posting, nobody cares.

[Melena]

That's complete bullshit. At the time, we knew the beta build that we were playing was a beta build. We had a small army of posters here saying that "LOL, spoiled kids these days think betas are just demos by a different name!" and "This is just the beta build, SE has the retail build they're holding back for release" and "It's going to have so much more content at release, we don't need to test all of the quests just the framework of the questing system!". And then, only after the game was released, we learned that the beta was a demo, that the beta build was the retail build and that there wasn't any additional content.

This. I'm still kicking myself about not cancelling my two CE's based on the beta. But kept holding onto this blind hope that it was just a beta and that SE knew of these issues and had it ready to be fixed by the time retail hit. Boy was I wrong

[Elcura]

So angry.

Anybody who thinks other people should have the ability to either see into the future or see into SE's HQ is trolling. We didn't know then what they had planned, just like Katlan said SE is very tight-lipped. There was absolutely no way to know what was going to be changed between beta and retail.

So you still don't know what trolling is? And know is probably the wrong word, guess is better. It was not hard to figure out the state of retail if the OB was any indication. It was a common worry near the end of OB when the release date for the PC version was announced. Why do you think the "This is just beta!" arguments came from? Some people were hopeful things would change and others had realistic expectations that not much, if anything at all would change, and some canceled based on the state of OB.

How was it clear? If they were holding back content and features for release, how could you tell from playing beta that they were holding back content and features? STFU

I guessed mostly from the update notes and whatever correspondence we got, the majority of which were bug fixes and other miscellaneous crap. Hell, Tanaka (I think) even said recently that they were only doing bug fixes during beta, and they didn't/couldn't implement (for whatever reason) player feedback and suggestions.

Were there indications? Sure, but don't play yourself like "oh yea, I knew all along, without a doubt." because you, just like everyone else, had hardly anything to base that assumption on.

It wasn't my intent to come across like that, but whatever.

[Spider-Dan]

I guessed mostly from the update notes and whatever correspondence we got, the majority of which were bug fixes and other miscellaneous crap. Hell, Tanaka (I think) even said recently that they were only doing bug fixes during beta, and they didn't/couldn't implement (for whatever reason) player feedback and suggestions.

Um, yeah, he said that in an interview that was published four days ago. You know, nearly 2 months after open beta ended and retail went live.

So unless you read that interview in your crystal ball, there's no way you could have known that before retail release.

[Elcura]

Because it was impossible to think otherwise before that interview.

[Spider-Dan]

Oh, it was certainly possible to think all sorts of things. Things like "Are you really so confused by this beta that you think 'this is it, final game guyz, nothing you can do now.' Like a game can't change," and "This is a beta, remember?"

You see, while it was difficult to predict that SE would do virtually nothing to fix the problems players reported in beta, what WASN'T difficult to predict was that the people playing the "Of course they weren't going to make any substantial changes from beta... expectatations that they would were unrealistic" are the same people who were screaming, "Do you know what the word BETA means?" when everyone pointed out all of the game's problems in the first place. (And no, I didn't read those posts when they were first posted, but my reverse crystal ball told me that they would be there. Because it's consistent.)

For more enjoyable reading, do an Advanced Search for keyword "beta" in posts older than one month from any of the apologists. You will quickly learn that we are all idiots to not understand what the purpose of a beta is, in lots of entertaining and unintentionally hilarious ways.

[aru]

Well put, Spider-Dan.

[Elcura]

Oh, it was certainly possible to think all sorts of things. Things like "Are you really so confused by this beta that you think 'this is it, final game guyz, nothing you can do now.' Like a game can't change," and "This is a beta, remember?"

You must really like me to search through old posts to try and catch me out. But that conversation has nothing to do with this one, nor does it reflect how I felt about how OB > retail would go. It was simply a case of arguing that things could change, and to keep an open mind. Not that they would definitely change. Yes, I didn't expect things to change from OB > retail, but that didn't mean I wasn't open to the fact that they could.

You see, while it was difficult to predict that SE would do virtually nothing to fix the problems players reported in beta, what WASN'T difficult to predict was that the people playing the "Of course they weren't going to make any substantial changes from beta... expectatations that they would were unrealistic" are the same people who were screaming, "Do you know what the word BETA means?" when everyone pointed out all of the game's problems in the first place. (And no, I didn't read those posts when they were first posted, but my reverse crystal ball told me that they would be there. Because it's consistent.)

How it that difficult to predict? You look at what you got and then you can form an idea of what you'll get (couple that with others' worries and so on). We got nothing but bug fixes, which made me believe that we would get nothing more. Yet, if things had drastically changed I would have been pleasantly surprised and pleased that I was wrong. The two issues are separate, but I suppose it's impossible to have realistic expectations and still argue that things could change (because guess what? They can.)

For more enjoyable reading, do an Advanced Search for keyword "beta" in posts older than one month from any of the apologists. You will quickly learn that we are all idiots to not understand what the purpose of a beta is, in lots of entertaining and unintentionally hilarious ways.

Betas are supposed to be for testing and collecting opinions, their primary purpose is not a glorified demo, though many companies have and will use them for that purpose.

Of course, all of this spun out of control from a single misplaced word. So I'm calling it a day before posts get deleted. Let's just say I change the wording on my original post from "known" to "guessed".

[Spider-Dan]

You must really like me to search through old posts to try and catch me out.

You're an apologist. As such, it's no great surprise that you were busy apologizing during the beta.

But that conversation has nothing to do with this one, nor does it reflect how I felt about how OB > retail would go. It was simply a case of arguing that things could change, and to keep an open mind.

That's strange, because it seems like a conversation in which you tell people to stop acting like the beta is the final would have a LOT to do with a discussion in which you claim you knew they wouldn't be much different.

Yes, I didn't expect things to change from OB > retail, but that didn't mean I wasn't open to the fact that they could.

So in other words, when you were telling people that they were "confused" to think that retail would mirror beta, in truth you expected it to be no different? Outstanding integrity on your part.

The two issues are separate, but I suppose it's impossible to have realistic expectations and still argue that things could change (because guess what? They can.)

Oh, it's possible... as long as you are devoid of intellectual honesty.

And let's be clear: you weren't arguing that things could change (contrast arguing that they can't). You were arguing that things would change (vs. people arguing that they wouldn't), and that people were stupid for not understanding what the purpose of a beta is.

[Elcura]

All I see is you making a lot of broad assumptions on my part. And I'm no apologist, as I make no apologies for the stupidity that is XIV. But what I find more interesting than failure is seeing how, and if they can turn it around.

[miokomioko]

He doesn't know what a logical fallacy is and the mods appear to have just given up on the XIV section as a whole.

[bruiser]

Guys, this is a pretty terrible argument.

[Elrina]

It really is.

And isn't this why we have the flame thread?